Spoilers Differences Between "The Cage" and Discovery (Minor "Desperate Hours" Spoilers)
- Thread starter Campe
- Start date
You mean like these women are wearing?
Those are not everyday uniforms. We both know this, and yeah, its still sexiest if they are forced to ware them. Notice some in the back have pants, That however, is not BTU's but a dress uniform, Russian female solders where the same uniform as men in the field. They simply have a skirt option with the dress uniform. If they are forced to ware it, then yeah by default it is sexist as its a sex based thing.
Do we see female officers in TOS in Jefferies Tubes? I honestly can't remember
Also, I would rather hear from someone who worked on the show about their attitude, so, I give you Nichelle Nichols
Source
As TOS forces a mini dress on all female crew, yeah its sexist. You guys can disagree to the end of time and keep showing dress uniforms. I am still waiting to see everyday uniforms, which we all know are unisex
Fuck, its TV. Not sure what the big damn deal is? This isn't real life. And it wasn't sexist, not to the women of the time. No matter how many times you stick your fingers in your ears and go "lalalala, I'm not listening!"
@T'Bonz has talked about this subject before, as someone (a female) who grew up during those times.
It was something I was talking about in regards to this being a reboot, these shows are made in distinct times and hard to reconcile on that level.
This is why history - any history - must be viewed in proper context. Only then can it be understood. Not necessarily approved, condoned, or justified. That's not the goal. Understanding is.
Ok, not sexiest . Show me men wareing them. And yeah, it was always sexist, but accepted as the way things are.
You guys will not even address the impartiality. You hand wave it off as "we never see that"
If you dont wish to see it, you will not. So I see no reason to keep trying to explian it to you.
You guys will not even address the impartiality. You hand wave it off as "we never see that"
If you dont wish to see it, you will not. So I see no reason to keep trying to explian it to you.
Whoosh!!!
As a professional historian, I approve this message.
It should not be overlooked, however, that even when miniskirts were in fashion and viewed by many as a sign of empowerment and liberation, the view was not universally shared. There were people who were worried the sense of liberation would be fleeting and the potential for sexist implications would swiftly emerge. Nonetheless, we should always be careful of applying present values unto past events without taking the time to examine the nuances of that past.
Is there ever a time where views are universally shared, throughout history? Curiosity is getting the better of me here, and I am stumped.
In TNG both men and women wore them occasionally.
But in any case, I agree that it is not cool if that's the only style of uniform females can wear. As an option it is fine, regardless of the wearer's gender.
In a literal sense, no. However, there are moments of preponderant acceptance or rejection of ideas, fashions, behaviours, etc. where we can say colloquially say "everybody..." (not unlike when economists say "full employment" when, statistically, it is expressed as "under 5%" or, for others, "under 4%"). Slavery, today, would be one such thing--of course slavery is not entirely eradicated, even today. However, the rate of rejection of the legitimacy of slavery is sufficiently high to be "universal", such that actual slavery is labeled with euphemistic language, denied, obscured, etc. when, a short time ago (in historical terms), it was openly practiced and legal.
Moreover, even if the terms remain in use over time, understandings of the meanings of words change constantly (one need only examine how "liberty" has been defined over time--it is a central theme of much of the work of American historian Eric Foner, for example, whose textbook I use in my US History I course). How a woman of the 60s recalls views of miniskirts (as "sexist" or "not sexist") differs from present day views (as expected). We can correctly point out the inherent sexism of requiring miniskirts of women whilst simultaneously acknowledging it would not have been necessarily perceived as such at the time. Therefore, we need to account for shifting views, why they have shifted and accept that some actions that held one meaning in the past might come to hold a very different, even opposite, meaning in the present.
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In TNG both men and women wore them occasionally.
But in any case, I agree that it is not cool if that's the only style of uniform females can wear. As an option it is fine, regardless of the wearer's gender.
The only issue with that one is poor design. TNG also had those tunic dress uniforms.
Starfleet likeiky would have a kilt/skirt options as pants may not work for some species.
My big issue was ST09 reviving it
I think its impractical, but there has not been a demonstration of impartiality in this discussion.
We know there were alternate uniforms because we saw them with pants during the Cage. Just because we didn't see any in use on the Enterprise doesn't mean they weren't a valid variant option. Men could wear them on TNG. We don't see any rule prohibiting them from male use during TOS. Lol.
Without any acknowledgement of cultural context, which has been cited as necessary for understanding the concept at the time.
"The Cage" and "Where No Man Has Gone Before" has demonstrated that pants and tunics are available to female personnel. Since there is any real world parallels to military uniforms, there are likely duty uniforms as well as dress and utilities, but most female officers seen are on the Bridge or in administrative or support functions (i.e. Sickbay, Bridge, Starbase adjutant).
Exactly
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