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Did Vulcans seem hypocritical at times?

it's pretty well-established that some Vulcan have bad attitudes toward anyone who's different.

And this would be hypocritical only if the Vulcans simultaneously claimed to uphold a principle of tolerance of difference.

However, no such principle has ever been in evidence. The content of IDIC is the invention of novelists and fans: the onscreen evidence on that derives solely from episodes where the IDIC symbol denotes Vulcan superiority!

From "Is There In Truth No Beauty?":

Jones: " I was just noticing your Vulcan IDIC, Mr Spock. Is it a reminder that, as a Vulcan, you can mind-link with the Medusans far better than I could?"
Kirk: "Well, I doubt that Mr Spock would don the most revered of all Vulcan symbols merely to annoy you, Dr Jones."
Spock: "As a matter of fact, I wear it this evening to honor you, Doctor."
Jones: "Indeed?"

The fact that IDIC could be used in a sense other than denoting Vulcan superiority takes Miranda Jones by surprise...

Also, from "The Forge":

Arev: "Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combination. Words that are a mere shadow of its true meaning."

So we're unlikely to understand the concept if clinging to the words!

Our last bit comes from "The Infinite Vulcan":

Kirk: "If you have Spock's mind, you'll know the Vulcan symbol called the IDIC."
Giant Spock: "Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations. Symbolising the elements that create truth and beauty."

Nothing there about tolerance. Nothing at all.

And that's all, folks. That's all we know of IDIC. For all we can deduce, it means that Vulcans are a superior species for enjoying the diversity of nature.

Timo Saloniemi
 
I always felt that outside Spock Vulcans were the kind of self righteous buggers you might know like recovering drug/ alcohol addicts, or really fit people who used to be fat or people who found religion (any religion) and then saw their former short comings in others, and wasted no time telling you.

As for IDIC- i recall reading Roddenberry came up with it to sell the pendant.

As for Vulcan parents...I have tried to reason with my 6 year old... I could only imagine a Vulcan converaton...

WHY?

Because it is late and your body mind and body need rest

WHY?

Because you have expended energy, from both your daily activities and the natural process of growing, thus requiring you to sleep.

But I am not tired

That is because you are overtired

But is that is not illogical ?

Yes, now go to sleep

Why

Because I said so

that too is an illogical reason
 
I always felt that outside Spock Vulcans were the kind of self righteous buggers you might know like recovering drug/ alcohol addicts, or really fit people who used to be fat or people who found religion (any religion) and then saw their former short comings in others, and wasted no time telling you.

As for IDIC- i recall reading Roddenberry came up with it to sell the pendant.

As for Vulcan parents...I have tried to reason with my 6 year old... I could only imagine a Vulcan converaton...

WHY?

Because it is late and your body mind and body need rest

WHY?

Because you have expended energy, from both your daily activities and the natural process of growing, thus requiring you to sleep.

But I am not tired

That is because you are overtired

But is that is not illogical ?

Yes, now go to sleep

Why

Because I said so

that too is an illogical reason
Hmm . . . "Because I know what happens when you don't sleep"?
 
It was established in the animated series episode Yesteryear that Spock was bullied by his classmates when he was a child. This was brought up again in Star Trek 2009. If you consider these 2 sources canon. I believe it was mentioned in the original series episode Journey to Babel by Spock's mother.

Now does it seem logical for a race that is supposed to embrace infinite diversity in infinite combinations (IDIC) to denigrate someone for being different? At least in the 2009 movie, it wasn't just the children who were doing it. The old men on the committee for the Vulcan Science Academy just had to bring up the fact that they thought his human mother was a disadvantage to him.

FYI - Vulcans weren't hypocritical at certain times; they were just plain hypocritical (especially Spock). That was shown time and time again in the majority of TOS episodes and beyond.
 
it's pretty well-established that some Vulcan have bad attitudes toward anyone who's different.
And this would be hypocritical only if the Vulcans simultaneously claimed to uphold a principle of tolerance of difference.

However, no such principle has ever been in evidence. The content of IDIC is the invention of novelists and fans: the onscreen evidence on that derives solely from episodes where the IDIC symbol denotes Vulcan superiority!

Timo Saloniemi

I guess Terra Prime doesn't count, which had not one but two scenes with evidence to the contrary. One is where T'Pol hangs her mom's IDIC over Elizabeth's incubator. Which implies that it's a symbol of her half human daughter's diversity. The other is where she and Trip hold hands and the IDIC (quite possibly the most beautiful image in Trek history). Surely this holds less water than the one person's perception of Vulcan superiority:rolleyes:

In the first 2 seasons, T'Pol often talks about how humans shouldn't judge other species by the standards of their own culture. That doesn't quite reach the level of tolerance but it's something that mitigates racism. Yet she and other Vulcans did this to humans all the time.

Why not? The human society is based on the telling of pleasant lies in the vain hope that there might be future social benefit - which is why game theory is piss-poor at describing true human interaction, as it assumes all long-term planning to aim at rather straightforward maximizing of personal gain, not a settling for inoffensive levels of gain. Vulcans could well be different, believing that flattery and groveling will merely bite them back in the future.
If that's your premise for Vulcan superiority, it doesn't hold up. Multiple Vulcans lied beginning with Spock and they can be every bit as political as humans (though they would probably be more subtle with flaterry). Why do you think the High Command said not everyone can do mind melds? Or that Panaar was incurable? If mind melding was branded as deviant, there would be no one left to find out what they were really up to. That makes it easy for them to hold on to power. Future social benefit right there. Also keep in mind the High Command was really a puppet for Romulans. It would have been in their best interests to flatter Vulcans about their superiority in order to isolate them from the rest of space.

Tracy Trek wrote:
It was established in the animated series episode Yesteryear that Spock was bullied by his classmates when he was a child. This was brought up again in Star Trek 2009. If you consider these 2 sources canon. I believe it was mentioned in the original series episode Journey to Babel by Spock's mother.

Now does it seem logical for a race that is supposed to embrace infinite diversity in infinite combinations (IDIC) to denigrate someone for being different? At least in the 2009 movie, it wasn't just the children who were doing it. The old men on the committee for the Vulcan Science Academy just had to bring up the fact that they thought his human mother was a disadvantage to him.
FYI - Vulcans weren't hypocritical at certain times; they were just plain hypocritical (especially Spock). That was shown time and time again in the majority of TOS episodes and beyond.
That's why I don't see a continuity issue with the portrayal of Vulcans in ENT as patronizing and racist. Hmm, they somehow ruined Vulcans by taking bits and pieces of what we already saw in previous series and putting it on a larger scale:rolleyes:

Since you mention Spock as hypocritical, it's always jarring to see that kind of behavior from people who have experienced being outcasts themselves (the other example is T'Pol in early seasons, especially Cogenitor).
 
I guess Terra Prime doesn't count, which had not one but two scenes with evidence to the contrary. One is where T'Pol hangs her mom's IDIC over Elizabeth's incubator. Which implies that it's a symbol of her half human daughter's diversity. The other is where she and Trip hold hands and the IDIC (quite possibly the most beautiful image in Trek history). Surely this holds less water than the one person's perception of Vulcan superiority:rolleyes:
Well, obviously - because that one person is Spock, exchanging explicit dialogue with a person who knows her Vulcans, while all the above is just wishy-washy ambiguity.

T'Pol never says what playing with that symbol is supposed to symbolize. Perhaps she ridicules the Vulcan swastika by turning it into a baby toy for her "less than superior" offspring? Perhaps she superstitiously hopes some of the Vulcan superiority will bless the disadvantaged child? Perhaps she logically deduces that familiarizing the kid with a shiny object will create stability in the family?

Also, it's really a T'Pol thing exclusively. Her ideas of almost-tolerance might make her a hypocrite, but the "don't judge by human standards" sentiment is not shared by the other Vulcans we see in the show. Or by Vulcans in other shows or movies, for that matter - save for Sarek later in his life of interspecies kinkiness.

If that's your premise for Vulcan superiority, it doesn't hold up. Multiple Vulcans lied beginning with Spock and they can be every bit as political as humans (though they would probably be more subtle with flaterry).
No, my premise is not that Vulcans would be honest. My premise is that while H. sapiens finds it advantageous to tell a specific type of lie that grants the fellow humans more than game theory would suggest they deserve, in order to secure future cooperation, V. sapienssimus finds it advantageous to yield less to the fellow Vulcan. "Take till they bleed" is the game theory approach, and this may serve well in holding together the Vulcan society.

When would Vulcans bribe each other with flattery? Sarek finally bribes his son with great reluctance in ST4, calling his acquaintances "of good character", but he admits his logic is uncertain. Beyond that, Vulcan social lies aim at taking, not giving. Which is quite typical of racist and supremacist movements among humans, too, and demonstrably a well-working alternate means to holding a bunch of people together, at least if combined with actual means of doing that taking (read: organized violence).

Why do you think the High Command said not everyone can do mind melds? Or that Panaar was incurable? If mind melding was branded as deviant, there would be no one left to find out what they were really up to. That makes it easy for them to hold on to power. Future social benefit right there.
Yet that's not how humans do it. Humans bribe each other with pleasantries and benefits. In the above, Vulcans are shown doing the opposite, taking away from each other just because they can, exactly like game theory tells we should do.

Also keep in mind the High Command was really a puppet for Romulans. It would have been in their best interests to flatter Vulcans about their superiority in order to isolate them from the rest of space.
An interesting concept - but does High Command really mold opinions in this society that seems to lean heavily on ancient teachings? There were warring sects of Surakist there, but we never really learn the division would be a recent, modern-Romulan-affected thing.

Doesn't mean the "superiority thing" wouldn't always have been the thing of the faction that the exodus Romulans represent. Much of that faction might have remained on Vulcan, paying lip service to the triumphant Surakists but still upholding old beliefs in practice.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Well, obviously - because that one person is Spock, exchanging explicit dialogue with a person who knows her Vulcans, while all the above is just wishy-washy ambiguity.
I'm not talking about Spock. From the dialogue, I see a woman taking a guy's piece of jewelry too personally. And Kirk says Spock wouldn't do it just to rub his telepathic abilities in her face. He knows him a lot better than Jones. As an analogy, that would be like if agnostic me assumed that a Christian was wearing a cross to tell me their faith is superior. I don't know what Jones' perception has to do with anything. But honoring her with the IDIC? He's just messing around with her.

T'Pol never says what playing with that symbol is supposed to symbolize.
While she could be merely giving Elizabeth something to look at, it shows up over and over in particular moments. If people only went by what's said, English and literature teachers would be out of a job. Some symbols are the results of professors reading too much into something but that's another topic. As for the IDIC, I'm not the only one who sees the same symbolism.
http://triptpolers.houseoftucker.com/guide/season_four.shtml
http://www.freewebs.com/kevin_thomas_riley/terraprime.htm

An interesting concept - but does High Command really mold opinions in this society that seems to lean heavily on ancient teachings? There were warring sects of Surakist there, but we never really learn the division would be a recent, modern-Romulan-affected thing.
Did the cave scene with V'Las and the Romulan mean anything to you? They had influence over him. We know they are patient and like to take over things slowly.
There's also a podcast on ENT Vulcans and it talks about how that change could have happened. Though the main point is about why ENT Vulcans are so different and addresses their jerkiness.

http://www.trek.fm/warp-five/45

Also, it's really a T'Pol thing exclusively. Her ideas of almost-tolerance might make her a hypocrite, but the "don't judge by human standards" sentiment is not shared by the other Vulcans we see in the show. Or by Vulcans in other shows or movies, for that matter - save for Sarek later in his life of interspecies kinkiness
While she's the only one to say that, T'Pol's job is tor epresent the High Command till of course, she quits. That could have been what they taught her. I see "don't judge by human standards" as an extention of the typical racism they had at the time (that humans never do anything right and shouldn't tell other species what to do).

Yet that's not how humans do it. Humans bribe each other with pleasantries and benefits.
I'm sure there are plenty of human dictatorships that do plenty of taking by withholding information (read a George Orwell book or some article about ISIS propaganda). And who says that V'Las's favorites wouldn't do any bribing? Corrupt governments have plenty of that (but maybe that's my Jersey cynicism). Also, flattery isn't always done to "give." Just ask Lear about his older daughters.
 
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