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Did Voyager make the Borg unscary?

^ Good point. But I have to say that the 3rd Hellraiser movie and all of the ones after it also suffered from a serious general drop in quality. So I think that is part of it too.

Huge fan of the first two films here! :borg:
 
Oh, totally agreed, Destro. They sort of changed their approach to the Cenobites accordingly, which, IMO, also relates to how the Borg changed.

(They're remaking the original, you know.)
 
That seems to be the fad theses days when it comes to franchises. Don't make sequels that are new stories in the established universe, instead reboot the series and retell the first (successful) movie in hopes that somehow it'll work.
 
In Hellraiser's case, it may be for the best. Those most recent sequels are utter shite. But I can think of a number of examples where it was the lazy thing to do...
 
Sure it is, they were practically predisposed to hating any new Aliens VOY introduced from the very start because they didn't WANT any new aliens. They preferred the older ones. The Dominion from DS9 is an unfair double standard.
Lies.

The fans hated the Kazon the second they saw what they looked like.
Well they did look ridiculous, the first time I saw a Kazon was in the episode Projections and I thought he was joke species created by the holodeck malfunction. However, had they been well written then it wouldn't have mattered what they looked like.

Fans saw them as "space lepers" and were repulsed by them and wanted them gone.
A lie.

They liked how they looked, but they hated how they were 1-D omnicidal maniacs and thus the show had to get rid of them.
What universe are you living in? :wtf: 8472 were hugely popular until In the Flesh made them Voyager's best buds.

They hated them for being "Predators"-types.
I personally never particularly liked the Hirogen, but all the other Trek fans I knew loved them until the Nazi episode

Yeah, they did. It was almost as bad as how they were all ready to boycott ENT before they even knew the details of the first episode.
The reason why people set out to bash Enterprise from the beginning is because it was a canon nightmare and the track-record of B&B on Voyager didn't give people much optimism that they would be able to handle it. It might not have been fair, but it was perfectly understandable.

I can blame them for being a bunch of whiny babies with double standards for Trek shows, because it's true.
Thanks for calling me a whiny baby, it's good that we can keep things civil, isn't it? :)


As an official Voyager "hater" I am sick of people like you spreading the lie that I and people like me set out to hate the show and every element of it. I set out to love, or at the very least like, each and every Star Trek series and Voyager was the only one where I just couldn't quite manage it. I gave it every chance I could, I watched it right up until the end and I desperately tried to force myself to love this show. It's not my fault that the writers on this show screwed up most of the opportunities I gave them, and if I have to rebuke you every time that I see you spread this ridiculous fallacy on this board then I guess that's what I'm going to have to do.
 
Yeah, like "Halloween" and "Prom Night". It doesn't work that well when the ORIGINAL first movies in their series weren't that good to begin with.

Some cases it works are "The Fly" wherein the remake is more fondly remembered than the original.
 

Truth, the fandom was opposed to no longer having the older races they were accustomed around when VOY began and were going into the series being more critical and hostile towards anything it did than with any other series. The Dominion is a double standard in that it got immediate love and no scrutiny whatsoever regardless of the skill of writing. If the Kazon had been DS9 regulars and been EXACTLY the same, the fandom would've accepted them without any problems.


Well they did look ridiculous, the first time I saw a Kazon was in the episode Projections and I thought he was joke species created by the holodeck malfunction. However, had they been well written then it wouldn't have mattered what they looked like.
THIS is the lie, and no matter how well written they were the Kazon would never have been appreciated as villains by the fans. No matter what.

Just like the Vidiians, they were found revolting and a stupid idea when they first showed up by the fans. Then we get a more nuanced view of them and the fans hated THAT as well and considered it a "decay" that they weren't all nasty folks.

What universe are you living in? :wtf: 8472 were hugely popular until In the Flesh made them Voyager's best buds.
They were popular from their look, that was it. The fans thought of them as 1-D generic "Universe Killers" and wanted them gone, especially since they were capable of realistically fighting the Borg. The fans NEVER would have tolerated the continued presence of a VOY race that could realistically fight the Borg, since the Borg are a beloved TNG creation and in their eyes nothing good is allowed to be around in VOY.

I personally never particularly liked the Hirogen, but all the other Trek fans I knew loved them until the Nazi episode

They thought of them as Predator knock-offs who looked too much like Jem-Hadar and were taking away from DS9 and didn't care about anything else.

The reason why people set out to bash Enterprise from the beginning is because it was a canon nightmare and the track-record of. It might not have been fair.
At least we agree that it wasn't fair on behalf of the fandom.

As an official Voyager "hater" I am sick of people like you spreading the lie that I and people like me set out to hate the show and every element of it. I set out to love, or at the very least like, each and every Star Trek series and Voyager was the only one where I just couldn't quite manage it. I gave it every chance I could, I watched it right up until the end and I desperately tried to force myself to love this show. It's not my fault that the writers on this show screwed up most of the opportunities I gave them, and if I have to rebuke you every time that I see you spread this ridiculous fallacy on this board then I guess that's what I'm going to have to do.
It's no lie, there were folks against VOY from the day it was announced and they continued to hound the series to this very day. They weren't set out to do anything but hate anything and everything VOY did and have been perfectly willing to ignore even the stuff most detractors of the series have said were good about it. They gave NO chance whatsoever and were always there to rub it in the faces of anyone who likes VOY that they're a bunch of morons for doing so and continue to do so to this day. I usually enjoy this board and I'll continue to even if it means I have to stomach the presence of rotten haters every day when I point out their presence.
 
The Kazon were just awful in every regard
"In the Flesh" ruined species 8472
The Hirogen were a bit impotent, they never really managed to harm the Voyager crew.
They were also a little too "comic book" in my opinion.
 
I don't know what the general fan reaction to these new races was while the show was actually on, but I liked the Vidiians and the Hirogen from the first time I saw them.

The Kazon, yeah ugh. Klingon-lite. They look awful. I just found them completely uninteresting.

I liked the Voth, but I hated that they were from Earth. Just a little too convenient. It makes the Trek universe seem small.

I'm kind of split on 8472. There are some things about them I find interesting, but I'm not too crazy about their appearance. I think doing them as CGI was a really bad idea, it already looks bad and very dated. I'm a CGI hater in general though, for living creatures anyway. I say save it for the ships (or better yet save it for enhancing the look of real models).

The last 8472 episode was so insanely awful it destroyed what interest I had in them. 84-Boothby-72...what were they thinking? :confused:
 
I don't think that Voyager made the Borg seem less scary. I can understand people having that reaction, but I never really took the Borg appearances on Voyager (entertaining as they sometimes were) very seriously; they were almost like a child's fantasy of fighting a scary bad guy and always coming out ok, with hardly a scratch. I think the Borg appearances on Voyager made Voyager seem (yet again) like a poorly written series. After a certain point it was nearly impossible to take the series seriously...because there never seemed to be any consequences on the series...even when facing the Borg.
 
The Kazon were just awful in every regard
"In the Flesh" ruined species 8472
The Hirogen were a bit impotent, they never really managed to harm the Voyager crew.
They were also a little too "comic book" in my opinion.

The Kazons looked like larger than life Oompa Loompas with their orange faces and crazy arse hair!
 
Anyone ever see the 'Hellraiser' films? The villainous Cenobites are a lot like the Borg in appearance and in diminished 'threat' equivalency.

It's interesting you should mention this. I had a roomie back in 1994 who was terrified of the Cenobites, and was terrified of the Borg as well. She had a theory that the Borg were Cenobites. They looked alike, and both were tied to cubes. She saw Borg Cubes as Lament Configurations. It amused me. :)

As for using the Borg as some background enemy instead of the big bad, that wouldn't bring in the ratings. Most of the Borg episodes were Sweeps Week stories meant to draw in the viewers.

Plus, they couldn't make a new race to serve as VOY's enemy race because EVERY SINGLE TIME they tried that, the fans hated it. Every single time. Funny that they put VOY in the Delta Quadrant to get away from the older races but the fans rejected ever attempt at new species and pretty much told them to use only the older ones.

I can only speak for myself, but my experience as a viewer of Voyager is completely the opposite of what you're presenting here. I loved the idea that Voyager was in a new kind of space and would be encountering new kinds of life.

Fans saw them as "space lepers" and were repulsed by them and wanted them gone.

The Vidians are a great example of an alien species that Voyager got right in it's first season. I loved them right away. I thought they had a disturbing-for-Trek makeup, and were scary while being extremely sympathetic. Their first few appearances were extremely moving and I'd count them among the most interesting races that we've ever seen. I had no desire to see the Vidians go, but it made sense that we wouldn't encounter them more than a handful of times, and I actually feel that they were handled fairly well.

But I was also happy to see 'old aliens' the Borg, as we knew from TNG that the Borg originated in the Delta Quadrant - so it just made sense that they would encounter the Borg.

Stop saying that, it's not true. :brickwall:

Sure it is, they were practically predisposed to hating any new Aliens VOY introduced from the very start because they didn't WANT any new aliens. They preferred the older ones. The Dominion from DS9 is an unfair double standard.

I'm a huge DS9 fan and I find this blanket statement that fans were predisposed to hating new aliens to be unrealistic. And to speak for what other fans 'WANT' is just silly. I can't say that I didn't like the older ones, and in many cases prefer them, but that was simply because the aliens that Voyager chose to use were often really lame...or just poorly written.

I'm not sure I understand your reference to The Dominion being an unfair double standard.

The fans hated the Kazon the second they saw what they looked like.

I actually liked all the new aliens presented in 'Caretaker' (it's my favorite Trek pilot), and I actually think if we'd only run into the Kazon in a single followup story that I would remember them fondly. My problems with the Kazon is that Voyager was constantly on the move and kept running into the Kazon for 2 seasons - and that for the most part these aliens seemed like a poor adversary IMO; developmentally wise they weren't interesting enough to sustain the longer storyline. Having Seska join them helped a lot. What didn't help was that in their relatively few appearances they had 1 truly terrible outing ("Initiations"), plus they were featured in a story arc which ended badly ("Investigations"). I did however think this experimental story arc was an interesting failure, and I had high hopes that future story arcs would improve on the formula. Sadly, there were very few story arcs to follow.

They hated them for being "Predators"-types.

I don't hate the Hirogen, but I do feel they are a rip off of the Predators. The thing that I do like about them is that they appear in a story arc, which I feel is far better than the Kazon arc in Season 2. I didn't hate "The Killing Game" the way a lot of fans seem to, and I loved the followup episodes in Season 7.


People did not set out to hate the races developed on Voyager. Stop blaming the fans for the faults of the show.
I can blame them for being a bunch of whiny babies with double standards for Trek shows, because it's true.

It's not true for me. I have the same expectations for every tv series that I watch (including all the treks): continuity & character development. Voyager just wasn't able to deliver these things to the degree that the other Treks were, which is why it's my least favorite Trek, though there are still many episodes that I do enjoy.
 
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The Kazon were just awful in every regard
"In the Flesh" ruined species 8472
The Hirogen were a bit impotent, they never really managed to harm the Voyager crew.
They were also a little too "comic book" in my opinion.

The Kazons looked like larger than life Oompa Loompas with their orange faces and crazy arse hair!

Yes!! Oompa-Loompas! Exactly! :rommie:

Anyone ever see the 'Hellraiser' films? The villainous Cenobites are a lot like the Borg in appearance and in diminished 'threat' equivalency.

It's interesting you should mention this. I had a roomie back in 1994 who was terrified of the Cenobites, and was terrified of the Borg as well. She had a theory that the Borg were Cenobites. They looked alike, and both were tied to cubes. She saw Borg Cubes as Lament Configurations. It amused me. :)

Ah, yes the cubes - another bizarre parallel. Personally, I can't help but feel the Borg (particularly in their latter-day 'zombie' depiction) might have been a little inspired by the Cenobites. :)
 
I think the borg that we loved in "First Contact" lost their teeth as they became more familiar throughout the Voyager Saga.

I much preferred Species 8472 as the scarier aliens. In terms of being unique, the Viidians are my all time favorite.
 
By the beginning of BOBW the federation was starting to develop thanks to Q help in Q Who. The federation was starting to plan new ships and weapons. By the time of Voyager lauch the ship was fitted with higher spec phasers and higher spec torpedoes (Admittingly it didn't show in Voyagers first seasons but Voyager was always on the run from the Kazon and Vidians) When they finally got to friendly space they could stop and conduct long needed repairs. UFP had developed new tech thanks to mistakes and leasons learn't from w359.

Voyager had to show a differrent side to the borg as they were in their area of the galaxy. In TNG we were shown the beast but in Voyager we had to see what drove it and why. Yes the borg were weakend by the arrival of the Queen but First Contact had to have a face to look @. Mostly for non trek people to put a face to them. But think of the queen as a processor for all those voices. She was hidden from the Enterprise and managed to sheld her self from Deanna betazoid senses. :rommie:
 
Voyager made the Borg scarier than ever- carrying on from First Contact. In every episode before unimatrix zero. then it was a case of we can get assimilated then turn back into oursleves easily. we can go to the borg queen and come back intact and then endgame killed them off. Voyager made the Borg scarier then finished them as a threat.
 
Are the Borg less scary when they were on Voyager??? Let's look back over the series. The crew boards, escapes, or destroyed Borg vessels not just once but a couple dozen times. Janeway faced down the Borg Queen three times and got away the winner each and every time. "Scorpion" which was truly a great episode almost destroyed the Borg in a war with Species 8472, and then Voyager finished the job 4 years later with weapons from the future. So my answer would be an outstanding "YES", Voyager the series didn't just make the Borg unscary, they made them dead!
 
Of and I almost forgot the best one. Janeway, Tuvok, and Torres all become Borg drones and live to tell about it! HA HA HA. Funny stuff.
 
Reliant, you are forgetting Picard, he also became a drone, lived to tell about it and killed a Borg Queen.

The Borg were always on borrowed time. They were only powerful until they met the race that they couldn't assimilate, or the one with the power to resist. The moment that they met 8472 they were doomed. You do realize from the time lines that the Borg met 8472, lost their Queen in "First Contact" and then experienced the events of 'Scorpion in a very short period of time.

Brit
 
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^Your right, Brit. The Collective had some hard times there. The species 8472 and the lost of the Queen in First Contact... The Borg surely had some bumps on the road.
 
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