Depends. How fast can the crew of the Voyager build a new one?
Did Voyager make the Borg unscary?
- Thread starter Lucy of Nine
- Start date
Why use the Borg at all after Scorpion? Kes had supposedly sent them beyond Borg space, they had Seven so they could explore the Borg through her without having the collective show up twice a year so that Voyager could evade them somehow. If they really wanted to keep the Borg as a mysterious and powerful enemy then they could, but they chose to use them as a recurring enemy, presumably to keep ratings up.
I'm with you GodBen.
And such a policy would not have excluded "Survival Instinct", which is one of the better Borg-centric episodes of Voyager for me.
I don't know, I still feel like everybody has built up the Borg into this unstoppable machine of death. We see in Voyager that there are a decent number of races in or near their territory. Some were probably left alone because they had nothing to offer, but others probably survived through cunning.
There were even some that had fought back for a long time, like Arcturus's race. Species 8472 beat them down hard. I think the Voth could give them a good fight.
Other than in their 1st appearance they have been beaten back by humanity every time. They lost in Best of Both Worlds. They lost in First Contact. They lost or were stalemated in Voyager a few times.
They are just one of many powerful alien races and they have lots of weaknesses to exploit. I just think too much has been made of their overall scaryness/unbeatable factor. I don't buy it.
The Borg adapt. But so do humans. Every encounter with the Borg has given humanity more knowledge and tools to fight them with.
Did Voyager overuse the borg? Probably. But there were more good Borg eps. than bad imo.
There were even some that had fought back for a long time, like Arcturus's race. Species 8472 beat them down hard. I think the Voth could give them a good fight.
Other than in their 1st appearance they have been beaten back by humanity every time. They lost in Best of Both Worlds. They lost in First Contact. They lost or were stalemated in Voyager a few times.
They are just one of many powerful alien races and they have lots of weaknesses to exploit. I just think too much has been made of their overall scaryness/unbeatable factor. I don't buy it.
The Borg adapt. But so do humans. Every encounter with the Borg has given humanity more knowledge and tools to fight them with.
Did Voyager overuse the borg? Probably. But there were more good Borg eps. than bad imo.
True, destro.
But what more or less ruined the Borg for me was the collective's special connection to Seven. Suddenly Seven, among billions and billions of drones, is the special one for the Queen? Sorry, but I didn't buy it. Like said - first 20 minutes of Dark Frontier are fine with me, the rest of the show; no thanks.
But what more or less ruined the Borg for me was the collective's special connection to Seven. Suddenly Seven, among billions and billions of drones, is the special one for the Queen? Sorry, but I didn't buy it. Like said - first 20 minutes of Dark Frontier are fine with me, the rest of the show; no thanks.
^ Well I can understand that.
Maybe it is incredibly rare that a drone is freed and given back that much of their former self? And maybe the connection left over was making the collective feel that and that explains their interest?
I don't know, that's all I've got and I know its a stretch.
Maybe it is incredibly rare that a drone is freed and given back that much of their former self? And maybe the connection left over was making the collective feel that and that explains their interest?
I don't know, that's all I've got and I know its a stretch.
As I understand it, Kes's boost sent them beyond the heart of Borg space. I interpret that as being a stretch of space that is solely Borg - if you come across another ship, it's Borg. The push Kes gave them got them out of that area and into one where they could at least encounter other friendly species.
Of course, this is handwaving from a viewer, not something that was openly declared on the show itself.
True. And the Borg seemed to have these subspace corridors via which they were able to travel great distances all the way to other quadrants as well.
This just came to me, I think the Borg mainly seem overused on Voyager because they are mentioned and referenced constantly just by Seven being around.
I think that contributes a lot to the Borg overkill factor that some people here seem to feel (though I'm not one of 'em, I say bring on the Borg!
)
Would those of you who feel they were over exposed feel the same if Seven wasn't part of the crew? Just curous.
I think that contributes a lot to the Borg overkill factor that some people here seem to feel (though I'm not one of 'em, I say bring on the Borg!
)Would those of you who feel they were over exposed feel the same if Seven wasn't part of the crew? Just curous.
Can't say, really. Part of it might have something to do with Seven being around and her past being brought to the table over and over again, especially during season 4.
If Seven hadn't been there, I think there might have still been couple Borg episodes, but their tone would have been different. Perhaps the Borg could have remained more mystical without Seven's insights.
If Seven hadn't been there, I think there might have still been couple Borg episodes, but their tone would have been different. Perhaps the Borg could have remained more mystical without Seven's insights.
Tachyon I do understand where you are coming from, but I have to buy the seven is a Queen in training angle. There is so much about Seven that is unique to her. We know of at least Seven individuals severed from the hive mind before you start counting the people in "Unity".
Except for the former drones in "Unity" each one of these people had most if not all of their cybernetics removed. Even Icheb could live without his cortical node. The drones in "Unity" had a lot of their cybernetics left in place simply because they didn't have either to skill to remove them or the ability to replace lost body parts with working prosthetics.
What they all didn't have was an emotion damper. The leader drones of Unity even forced Chakotay to help them form a cooperative just to keep former drones from killing each other. Picard didn't have one, otherwise he wouldn't have "broke his little ships." It's apparent that neither Janeway nor B'Elanna had one. So why did Seven? Why would there be a need for a drone uniquely specialized, other than that of a Queen in training?
While I don't think the Borg were "cool", I do think that they were very interesting, so much so that I have written one "scary Borg" story and this thread has given me some ideas for a story told from the POV of the three queens we saw on the screen.
From a story angle, there is a throwaway line in "Unimatrix Zero" where the queen tells a small boy, "I was just about your age when I was assimilated." And there is another in "Dragon's Teeth."
GEDRIN: That star cluster in grid fourteen twenty one? Nearly half the planets are inhabitable.
SEVEN: Unfortunately they are already occupied, by the Borg.
GEDRIN: The Borg? In my century they'd only assimilated a handful of systems. It looks like they've spread through the quadrant like a plague. No offence.
So in the space of nine hundred years the Borg became something to contend with. From a story writer's point of view this is all exciting stuff.
The Borg just like anyone else were scary because they were mysterious, but with each story told we learn more about them, and they became less terrifying.
Brit
"Queen-In-Training" angle is somewhat acceptable (I'm getting all Seven here, lol!). It could explain some of the Borg Queen's behavior. 
However, in the collective of billions of drones, there must have been other such candidates in a case of one being destroyed. So what I do not buy is the catfight between the Borg Queen and Janeway. Why would the Queen care so much about one lost drone? I just don't see it. I guess my mental picture of the Borg differs from TPTB's. Granted, that Locutus and Data got some special treatment from her as well, but still. I didn't like this "Seven is so special, I want her back so badly" attitude very much.
However, in the collective of billions of drones, there must have been other such candidates in a case of one being destroyed. So what I do not buy is the catfight between the Borg Queen and Janeway. Why would the Queen care so much about one lost drone? I just don't see it. I guess my mental picture of the Borg differs from TPTB's. Granted, that Locutus and Data got some special treatment from her as well, but still. I didn't like this "Seven is so special, I want her back so badly" attitude very much.
Should the Borg be used again? Quite simply, yes. IF a good story or stories comes up.
Don't use them just 'cause you can.
Don't use them just 'cause you can.
I am sure that there were thousands of these specially programmed drones, the Borg would have been redundant if nothing else.
Have you seen NG "The Best of Both Worlds," and the movie "First Contact?" One of the plot points was that when Picard was assimilated, he was to be the Queen's counterpart, another "one who is many." One of the compulsions was however that Picard had to give himself "freely" to the Borg. I extrapolated that out to the Queen herself.
The final step might be that the potential Queen Drone must give herself to the Borg, to do that the drone has to be freed at some point, and then return. Think Seven in the episode "Raven". She had taken one of the final steps and was therefore more valuable.
Like I said this is speculation from a writer's point of view, would you believe my daughter and I talked about this yesterday, throwing plot points back and forth and in the space of one day I now have twelve pages of hand written notes. When Aeris gets excited her Hyperactivity kicks in and she was up grinning and pacing.
I wasn't kidding when I said exciting stuff. I've even given the three Queens names now. (And yes my plot requires the knowledge of their original names.)
The "Next Generation" through "First Contact" Queen - Argine
The "Scorpion" through "Unimatrix Zero" Queen - Ragnel
The "Endgame" Queen - Pallas
Brit
Yes, I have seen "The Best of Both Worlds," and the movie "First Contact."
I couldn't agree more.
As for using the Borg as some background enemy instead of the big bad, that wouldn't bring in the ratings. Most of the Borg episodes were Sweeps Week stories meant to draw in the viewers.
Plus, they couldn't make a new race to serve as VOY's enemy race because EVERY SINGLE TIME they tried that, the fans hated it. Every single time. Funny that they put VOY in the Delta Quadrant to get away from the older races but the fans rejected ever attempt at new species and pretty much told them to use only the older ones.
Plus, they couldn't make a new race to serve as VOY's enemy race because EVERY SINGLE TIME they tried that, the fans hated it. Every single time. Funny that they put VOY in the Delta Quadrant to get away from the older races but the fans rejected ever attempt at new species and pretty much told them to use only the older ones.
Stop saying that, it's not true.
The Kazon were interesting at first, but they were poorly developed and acted like complete imbeciles most of the time. Fans loved the Vidiians, the reason why I stopped loving them is because in the second season they started using them as evil stormtrooper-style villains rather than as real people. Fans loved Species 8472 before they screwed them up by making them friendly and "misunderstood". I remember fans loving the Hirogen until they went all Nazi on us.People did not set out to hate the races developed on Voyager, people turned against each of the races because they were badly developed over time. The very same thing happened with the Borg, they started out on Voyager as a cool villain but people turned against them due to poor writing and crappy episodes.
Stop blaming the fans for the faults of the show.
If I'm not mistaken, Vaadwaur supposed the be the villains of the later seasons. They wrote a two-parter for them, but in the last minute they squeezed them into one episode, and "puff!" - they were gone ever since.
That was disappointing. I am hoping that perhaps Vaadwaur will appear in Voyager books in the future.
That about sums is up. Same happened to me when watching the third season of Battlestar Galactica. Once we got to see Cylons up and close, they became less terrifying for me.
That was disappointing. I am hoping that perhaps Vaadwaur will appear in Voyager books in the future.
That about sums is up. Same happened to me when watching the third season of Battlestar Galactica. Once we got to see Cylons up and close, they became less terrifying for me.
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Stop saying that, it's not true.
Sure it is, they were practically predisposed to hating any new Aliens VOY introduced from the very start because they didn't WANT any new aliens. They preferred the older ones. The Dominion from DS9 is an unfair double standard.
The fans hated the Kazon the second they saw what they looked like.
Fans saw them as "space lepers" and were repulsed by them and wanted them gone.
They liked how they looked, but they hated how they were 1-D omnicidal maniacs and thus the show had to get rid of them.
They hated them for being "Predators"-types.
Yeah, they did. It was almost as bad as how they were all ready to boycott ENT before they even knew the details of the first episode.
I can blame them for being a bunch of whiny babies with double standards for Trek shows, because it's true.
Anyone ever see the 'Hellraiser' films? The villainous Cenobites are a lot like the Borg in appearance and in diminished 'threat' equivalency.
Pinhead and the other Cenobites were scary as hell in the first movie, because they had a combined screentime of about 10 minutes and about fifteen lines. In the first, they retreat because they get what they want, not because they are beaten. In the second movie, Kirstie learns about Pinhead's origins and works with his 'good self' to defeat, well, himself, and the other Cenobites. But it's only this that really defeats them. Then, in the third movie, he comes back, and there's a new crop of Cenobites to be defeated by Terry Farrell (yes, that Terry Farrell). In subsequent films, many others are able to 'defeat' the Cenobites.
My point? They realized that they had to reuse Cenobites because of their popularity, requiring them to come up with increasingly implausible ways of defeating them until they had reduced them, particularly Pinhead, to almost a parody of their former selves. Mystery was what made them so threatening.
Sound familiar?
(And yes, it wasn't even as bad with Pinhead and the Cenobites as the Borg, even though the latest movies are shit.)
Pinhead and the other Cenobites were scary as hell in the first movie, because they had a combined screentime of about 10 minutes and about fifteen lines. In the first, they retreat because they get what they want, not because they are beaten. In the second movie, Kirstie learns about Pinhead's origins and works with his 'good self' to defeat, well, himself, and the other Cenobites. But it's only this that really defeats them. Then, in the third movie, he comes back, and there's a new crop of Cenobites to be defeated by Terry Farrell (yes, that Terry Farrell). In subsequent films, many others are able to 'defeat' the Cenobites.
My point? They realized that they had to reuse Cenobites because of their popularity, requiring them to come up with increasingly implausible ways of defeating them until they had reduced them, particularly Pinhead, to almost a parody of their former selves. Mystery was what made them so threatening.
Sound familiar?
(And yes, it wasn't even as bad with Pinhead and the Cenobites as the Borg, even though the latest movies are shit.)
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