Did TNG predict the catalyst for ST2009?

[dswynne1]

I watched some scenes of the TNG episode "All Good Things...". As some of you may know, it was essentially a time-travel episode that had Picard jumping at different points in time in his lifeline. Now, in the "future", the Romulans were no longer a major power, as evident by the fact that there was no longer a "Neutral Zone". I doubt JJ Abrams and Bad Robot saw this as an excuse to destroy Romulus in ST2009, but would it be a coincidence that the fall of the Romulan Star Empire, as we know it, in "All Good Things" is because of the Hobus Star Disaster? It would certainly justify Starfleet's liberal usage of cloaking technology circa 2401 CE/early 25th century, and it would definitely tie into the plot within the Star Trek Online game that has the Klingons becoming antagonistic towards the Federation again.

Food for thought.

 

[Zeke]

Interesting thought. It's easy enough to imagine the Klingons conquering the Romulans without any such advantage, but it would certainly have helped.

By the way -- and I'm not saying this reflects my actual opinion -- how am I just now noticing that "Bad Robot" sounds like "Bad Reboot"?

 

[T'Girl]

After the destruction of their capital world (and any other Romulan worlds a similar distance from the "supernova") it would be easy to see the Romulan Empire basically falling apart. The surrounding powers (including the Federation) then would carve off pieces of the corpse for their own territories.

 

[vulcan redshirt]

Although I doubt that the Feredation would aggressively annex systems asociated with the remains of the Romulan Star Empire (unlike for example the Klingons), it wouldnt be unreasonable for species subjugated into the empire to make a bid for independance, and request Federation assistance.

 

[Ethros]

I've never played Star Trek Online, but I hate the idea that the Klingons would become antagonistic towards the Federation yet again. I mean Jebus, make your mind up guys.

I much prefer to think that the Dominion War made them even stronger allies, as really even though they were at peace/allies from 2293, and strengthed by the Enterprise-C incident of 2344, all the way up to DS9 they'd never really fought side by side.
From what we know anyway, there were wars/skirmishes during that time such as the Cardassian border wars, Talarian & Tzenkethi conflicts etc, but I doubt the Klingons ever got involved in those.

I like to think the Klingons were impressed with the UFP in those battles and realised they weren't as "weak & pathetic" as they often made them out to be. And then as Daniels said in Azati Prime, the Klingons eventually join the Federation at some point.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Martok definitely wouldn't become antagonistic toward the Federation but knowing how the high council functions I wouldn't be surprised if his successor drove up anti-Federation sentiment to gain support.

I doubt they intended Romulus to get sucked into a black hole in AGT since the characters talked like the Klingons just conquered them. But you could certainly retcon it that way if you preferred.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I watched some scenes of the TNG episode "All Good Things...". As some of you may know, it was essentially a time-travel episode that had Picard jumping at different points in time in his lifeline. Now, in the "future", the Romulans were no longer a major power, as evident by the fact that there was no longer a "Neutral Zone". I doubt JJ Abrams and Bad Robot saw this as an excuse to destroy Romulus in ST2009, but would it be a coincidence that the fall of the Romulan Star Empire, as we know it, in "All Good Things" is because of the Hobus Star Disaster? It would certainly justify Starfleet's liberal usage of cloaking technology circa 2401 CE/early 25th century, and it would definitely tie into the plot within the Star Trek Online game that has the Klingons becoming antagonistic towards the Federation again.

Food for thought.

The "All Good Things" future was my first thought too, but then I watched it again and noticed that they mention Romulus when talking in Data's mansion. So I guess Spock made it in time in that universe. Or whatever nefarious forces blew up Hobus, didn't.

 

[T'Girl]

Although I doubt that the Feredation would aggressively annex systems asociated with the remains of the Romulan Star Empire

If it meant denying those systems to the Klingons and others, yes I could see the Federation annexing those systems, and doing so as fast as possible.

And then as Daniels said in Azati Prime, the Klingons eventually join the Federation at some point.

I believe Daniels said "joined together." Not quite the same as the Empire becoming apart of the Federation.

 

[-Brett-]

I've never played Star Trek Online, but I hate the idea that the Klingons would become antagonistic towards the Federation yet again. I mean Jebus, make your mind up guys.

STO is pretty mediocre at the best of times, bit it's not like they pulled this out of their asses. "All Good Things" "The Visitor" "Endgame", pretty much every depiction of "the future" (relative to the shows normal setting) shows the Federation and Klingons becoming enemies again. They're just kind of shitty allies.

 

[Ethros]

^ Does Endgame? Been a while since I've watched it so I can't remember exactly. Wasn't it just that one Klingon who had a time machine for no reason, who attacked Admiral Janeway because to be fair didn't she steal it from him?

And then as Daniels said in Azati Prime, the Klingons eventually join the Federation at some point.

I believe Daniels said "joined together." Not quite the same as the Empire becoming apart of the Federation.

Well, the lines are-
ARCHER: The Federation? You've mentioned them before.
DANIELS: Vulcans, Andorians, Ithenites, Klingons. Dozens of species, including humans, all unified in a powerful alliance.

Klingons are placed in the same setence as Vulcans and Andorians- species Archer would know, in the response to basically the question "what's the Federation?"
So yeah the impression from that line is, in Daniel's future at least, Klingons are UFP members.


Granted though that's the future, 26th Century, where the Battle of Procyon V occurs between the Feds and the Sphere Builders. And where the Expanse takes up half the galaxy.
"It extends fifty thousand light years in all directions, and it is growing."


Obviously that future will no longer occur after the Sphere's were destroyed in the season 3 finale, but still, I personally would like to think one day the Klingons still join the Federation.

 

[erastus25]

I watched some scenes of the TNG episode "All Good Things...". As some of you may know, it was essentially a time-travel episode that had Picard jumping at different points in time in his lifeline. Now, in the "future", the Romulans were no longer a major power, as evident by the fact that there was no longer a "Neutral Zone". I doubt JJ Abrams and Bad Robot saw this as an excuse to destroy Romulus in ST2009, but would it be a coincidence that the fall of the Romulan Star Empire, as we know it, in "All Good Things" is because of the Hobus Star Disaster? It would certainly justify Starfleet's liberal usage of cloaking technology circa 2401 CE/early 25th century, and it would definitely tie into the plot within the Star Trek Online game that has the Klingons becoming antagonistic towards the Federation again.

Food for thought.

Alternatively, TNZ could be gone b/c the federation and Romulans have signed a treaty eliminating it. Maybe their mutual enmity toward each other has cooled by then.

 

[The Wormhole]

^ Does Endgame? Been a while since I've watched it so I can't remember exactly. Wasn't it just that one Klingon who had a time machine for no reason, who attacked Admiral Janeway because to be fair didn't she steal it from him?

Nah, if anything Endgame makes it clear there's still some diplomatic relations between the Federation and the Klingons. B'Elanna Torres is the Federation's ambassador to the Empire in the future.

 

[Lance]

There is a part of me that likes to imagine parts of the "All Good Things" future came to pass in certain ways. For example, I like to think Future Old Guy Riker commandeered a Galaxy Class as his personal flagship, had it pimped up with extra nacelles and stuff, and 'christened' it USS Enterprise NCC-1701-D..... just because he SO wanted to captain her some day. And he wasn't gonna let all that crashing on Veridian III business stop him now he's an Admiral and can do whatever the hell he likes!

 

[The Wormhole]

There is a part of me that likes to imagine parts of the "All Good Things" future came to pass in certain ways. For example, I like to think Future Old Guy Riker commandeered a Galaxy Class as his personal flagship, had it pimped up with extra nacelles and stuff, and 'christened' it USS Enterprise NCC-1701-D..... just because he SO wanted to captain her some day. And he wasn't gonna let all that crashing on Veridian III business stop him now he's an Admiral and can do whatever the hell he likes!

Actually, I strangely like that idea.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Maybe if Voyager hadn't made it home for another twenty years, the Federation and Klingons would still be allies.

Was your little Borg worth it, Janeway?

 

[arch101]

This discussion reminds me that Q had a throwaway line early in series 1 of TNG where, regarding the Klingons, he tells Picard "it's no wonder you defeated them". There must have been a change of plan, because they never seemed like a defeated people for the rest of the run.

 

[erastus25]

This discussion reminds me that Q had a throwaway line early in series 1 of TNG where, regarding the Klingons, he tells Picard "it's no wonder you defeated them". There must have been a change of plan, because they never seemed like a defeated people for the rest of the run.

Well, they did initiate the Khitomer talks after it became clear that they needed to make dramatic changes to their governance and way of life. To extend the metaphor, the US didn't technically defeat the USSR, but you could get away with saying they did.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Here's an idea.

The Klingon high council is smarter than they seem. They knew they couldn't fight the Federation and the Romulans at the same time. But they also knew how to make sure they didn't have to fight the Federation: Be nice to them. So by making an alliance with the Federation they could quietly rebuild their forces, be protected from Romulan attacks and then not have to deal with the Federation on another front when they finally invaded Romulus. The plan all along was to conquer Romulus and then attack the Federation again. Gowron and Duras didn't know about the plan but the rich families behind the throne knew they could easily get whoever was in charge to do whatever they wanted.

Of course if that's true, it would imply that Martok was quietly assassinated some point a couple years after the end of the Dominion War.

 

[The Wormhole]

This discussion reminds me that Q had a throwaway line early in series 1 of TNG where, regarding the Klingons, he tells Picard "it's no wonder you defeated them". There must have been a change of plan, because they never seemed like a defeated people for the rest of the run.

There's a lot of things about the nature of the relationship between the Federation and the Klingons that are said in the first two seasons of TNG that later get set aside when more firmer things get established. For example, it's implied in Heart of Glory and later stated in Samaritan Snare that the Klingons are members of the Federation, which we now know they aren't.

Though in this case, we can easily explain it as Q trying to get a reaction out of Worf.

 

[Ethros]

Here's an idea.

The Klingon high council is smarter than they seem. They knew they couldn't fight the Federation and the Romulans at the same time. But they also knew how to make sure they didn't have to fight the Federation: Be nice to them. So by making an alliance with the Federation they could quietly rebuild their forces, be protected from Romulan attacks and then not have to deal with the Federation on another front when they finally invaded Romulus. The plan all along was to conquer Romulus and then attack the Federation again. Gowron and Duras didn't know about the plan but the rich families behind the throne knew they could easily get whoever was in charge to do whatever they wanted.

Of course if that's true, it would imply that Martok was quietly assassinated some point a couple years after the end of the Dominion War.

In DS9 s7 though, Sloan predicted the Klingons would take around 10 years to recover

SLOAN: To evaluate an ally. And a temporary ally at that. I say that because when the war is over, the following will happen in short order. The Dominion will be forced back to the Gamma Quadrant, the Cardassian Empire will be occupied, the Klingon Empire will spend the next ten years recovering from the war and won't pose a serious threat to anyone. That leaves two powers to vie for control of the quadrant, the Federation and the Romulans.
BASHIR: This war isn't over and you're already planning for the next.


Indeed of the 3 main powers, they were the ones who were worst off. You can imagine they really went tooth and nail fighting the Dominion, and especially how battered their fleet must have been after the time in late s7 when they were the only ones fighting in the war (with the Romulans and Federation withdrawing until they could develop a defense against the Breen weapons)