Did They Jump Too Far?

[Ray Hardgrit]

It shows that surface details are all that matters.

Mores the pity.

What you're seeing is 50% of what the episode is giving you, it's really important! First you interpret the image, then you accept it as a reality, then you get drawn into the story, then you think about its themes, and so on. If the image looks wrong, then that messes with the whole process.

 

[fireproof78]

What you're seeing is 50% of what the episode is giving you, it's really important! First you interpret the image, then you accept it as a reality, then you get drawn into the story, then you think about its themes, and so on. If the image looks wrong, then that messes with the whole process.

I guess...I don't see it that way (no pun intended). I don't find the visuals as important as characters or story. For instance, I do not like the visuals of TNG. I cannot stand the beige, the stuffiness of the whole presentation. It feels very compressed. But, there are episodes that the story is very engaging and draws me in. So, the visuals become like 25% of what I see.

With Discovery, the Klingons were so interesting because they were different. They offered up something new to engage me in to the story. So, I guess I did engage at the 50% level because they felt way more real than, say, TMP or TSFS.

The image doesn't "look wrong" to me. But, I see it repeated so often here and elsewhere that I'm throwing up my hands and giving up. Aesthetics win.

Sadly.

Yes, I find it sad. I find it deeply shallow. I've seen it for years.

 

[eschaton]

I'll give them some credit for S2 Klingons. I don't think they were in a position to 100% revamp what they had, so they kind of had work with the tools available. But they did clearly make an effort.

After the whole Klingon kerfluffle, it's mind boggling that they then included a Ferengi for like 5 seconds in S3 that was basically "Oh you didn't like when we randomly changed how aliens look. Yeah. Well. Fuck you."

But at at the same time... S3 also included a Lurian... that just a straight up Morn looking dude...

I think this is all easily explainable as being due to the influence of Glenn Hetrick. He seems to love, love love doing full silicone masks, to the point that in Season 3 they used full silicone masks for the fucking Orions, who could be done with grease paint.

Hetrick never had any control over the makeup of other Trek shows, however, so on Picard and SNW we have much lighter prosthetics which allow for a more full range of facial expression.

 

[Fateor]

I'll give them some credit for S2 Klingons. I don't think they were in a position to 100% revamp what they had, so they kind of had work with the tools available. But they did clearly make an effort.

After the whole Klingon kerfluffle, it's mind boggling that they then included a Ferengi for like 5 seconds in S3 that was basically "Oh you didn't like when we randomly changed how aliens look. Yeah. Well. Fuck you."

But at at the same time... S3 also included a Lurian... that just a straight up Morn looking dude...

The only way they wouldn't have been in a position to revamp what they had was if there was a direct demand from the network that the Klingon's continue to look that way. And that sounds highly unlikely.

There were Ferengi in Season 3 of Discovery?

It shows that surface details are all that matters.

Mores the pity.

Surface details are a part of the whole.

So if the Surface Details are bad, and the Writing is bad, that doesn't leave a lot left to judge the show by.

Hetrick never had any control over the makeup of other Trek shows, however, so on Picard and SNW we have much lighter prosthetics which allow for a more full range of facial expression.

I'm pretty sure Michael Dorn would have straight up refused to come back if they had tried to force him into the stifling Discovery makeup.

 

[fireproof78]

Surface details are a part of the whole.

So if the Surface Details are bad, and the Writing is bad, that doesn't leave a lot left to judge the show by.

Characters are still things I can connect with. So, if the surface levels are bad and the writing is bad and the characters are good I'll still engage.

It's ok for just that. Star Trek is not some sort of thing that always has the good.

There were Ferengi in Season 3 of Discovery?

Yes, a captain.

 

[Fateor]

Characters are still things I can connect with. So, if the surface levels are bad and the writing is bad and the characters are good I'll still engage.

It's ok for just that. Star Trek is not some sort of thing that always has the good.

But the characters aren't good.

In fact, outside of Saru, which can be laid solely at the foot of Doug Jones legendary ability to portray emotion through body language alone. The character's on Discovery were remarkably shallow.

Shallow to the point where I'd say even TNG O'Brien was a more in depth and well thought out character then even Michael Burnham. Which is particularly damning given she was supposed to be the main character.

Yes, a captain.

Are you sure you're not mistaking something else for a Ferengi? Because I've re-watched DS9 dozens of times. And I never saw any Ferengi on Discovery.

 

[fireproof78]

Shallow to the point where I'd say even TNG O'Brien was a more in depth and well thought out character then even Michael Burnham. Which is particularly damning given she was supposed to be the main character.

Disagree here. Burnham is definitely deeper and reflects a lot of experiences people have with trauma and being told to get over it.

Are you sure you're not mistaking something else for a Ferengi?

Yes, I'm sure.

 

[Fateor]

Disagree here. Burnham is definitely deeper and reflects a lot of experiences people have with trauma and being told to get over it.

The attempt to portray Burnham as traumatized was undercut by the writing.

Burnham is traumatized by watching the Klingon's kill her mother in front of her? Writers say that never actually happened.

Burnham is traumatized from causing a war with the Klingons? Writers have her find out it was inevitable because plot and she gets over it instantly.

So who's trauma is she reflecting?

Hell, you want good portrayals of Trauma? Go watch the Siege of AR-558 and it's follow up episode It's Only a Paper Moon. Or even Season 2 of Picard, which does an honestly impressive multifaceted portrayal of the subject.

Yes, I'm sure.

The rest of Star Trek apparently disagrees.

 

[fireproof78]

The attempt to portray Burnham as traumatized was undercut by the writing.

Because trauma presents identically?

Burnham is traumatized by watching the Klingon's kill her mother in front of her? Writers say that never actually happened.

Irrelevant given her dad died and that's what Burnham experienced.

Hell, you want good portrayals of Trauma? Go watch the Siege of AR-558 and it's follow up episode It's Only a Paper Moon. Or even Season 2 of Picard, which does an honestly impressive multifaceted portrayal of the subject.

Not what I want. Those stories ignore the rest of the story of trauma and healing after being told to suppress it because Vulcan.

Plus the guilt she feels and carries over Georgio.

 

[Phoenix219]

The time jump was the only thing that made DSC almost kind of watchable to me. Combine that with shifting focus away from Burnham and the show would have been alot better.

It's a shame. Discovery had some great characters, but they were always in the shadow of Burnham.

In Season 4 there was a moment where I thought they had it figured out, that they could use book and saru as mccoy and spock, and bounce them off the captain. unfortunately, it didn't stick.

 

[Phoenix219]

I hate to break it to you, but Star Trek is generic sci-fi.

not really. its the absolute OPPOSITE of generic. certain terms, designs and symbols identify it almost immediately. it predated most other televised sci fi, defined the rules of the genre... it is recognizable and iconic. the farthest thing from a generic. lol. it INSPIRED all of those later generic shows.

 

[Phoenix219]

This is an odd assumption. Fuller did, yes, but then Kurtzman and the rest had to work with what was given to them because, well money isn't infinite. So, they tried to go thematically a new direction and bring in those touchstones of Trek, as I mentioned before. They tried combine a lot of things that Fuller wanted to do in to one. In short, the challenges were not meant to draw ire of fans, but work within the framework set up. Short of burning it all to the ground and doing a tax write off. Which, reading this thread, sounds like many would prefer.

And every time the ire of the vocal fans got prodded they withdrew. They contracted. They jumped to the 32nd century but that's not good enough. It's not "Star Trek!" was the rallying cry I would see. So, they would bring in a touchstone, like the 10-C aliens, a reflection of both the Doomsday Machine and V'Ger.

To my view, it was always reactionary. And, again, for me, Burnham and Saru and them kept me invested, but that doesn't make the choices good. It, sadly, reflects a fear based storytelling, rather than necessarily a story with conviction.

I spent the whole season speculating that it could be the same civilization that created the Doomsday Machine earlier. To some, that would have been a detriment. For me, it would have been a huge draw.

 

[The Wormhole]

"The Ferengi wouldn't work, it was 90's makeup!"

Ferengi shows up. Looks awesome.

Oh really? I mean, I have no problem with how modern productions have handled the Ferengi, but looking all around this forum I see constant complaints about how the modern shows "ruined" the Ferengi by daring to alter the look they had in the 90s, despite the fact it is the exact same look.

not really. its the absolute OPPOSITE of generic. certain terms, designs and symbols identify it almost immediately. it predated most other televised sci fi, defined the rules of the genre... it is recognizable and iconic. the farthest thing from a generic. lol. it INSPIRED all of those later generic shows.

No on all counts. A lot of Star Trek is derived from Forbidden Planet, a movie from the 1950s which is what most other sci-fi over the decades has drawn inspiration from. But hey, enjoy the view from your rose tinted glasses.

 

[HotRod]

not really. its the absolute OPPOSITE of generic. certain terms, designs and symbols identify it almost immediately. it predated most other televised sci fi, defined the rules of the genre... it is recognizable and iconic. the farthest thing from a generic. lol. it INSPIRED all of those later generic shows.

Forbidden Planet, The Day the Earth Stood Still, First Spaceshellohip onhello Venus, 12 to the Moon, This Island Earth, and many others, all say hello.

 

[evilchumlee]

It shows that surface details are all that matters.

Mores the pity.

Visuals are absolutely, critically important to visual media like TV. It's the entire reason given as to why Discovery didn't look like TOS... which is absolutely fair.

It's really not "the surface details are all that matters", it's "what visuals details do you care about". If the visuals don't matter, then everything should have liked TOS, because it doesn't matter? Right?

Oh really? I mean, I have no problem with how modern productions have handled the Ferengi, but looking all around this forum I see constant complaints about how the modern shows "ruined" the Ferengi by daring to alter the look they had in the 90s, despite the fact it is the exact same look.

We have much different definitions of "exact same".

Now... this guy... yeah, that's the same. Not exact, but it doesn't need to be exact. Humans don't look exactly the same. But he looks like he's actually the same race.

The DSC Ferengi isn't really a big deal... whatever, it's in the future, Ferengi look different for some reason. Or maybe just THAT Ferengi looks different. I can deal with it/explain it away. My only issue with it is... why? Why did they feel the need to change things just for the sake of changing them?

The only way they wouldn't have been in a position to revamp what they had was if there was a direct demand from the network that the Klingon's continue to look that way. And that sounds highly unlikely.

Budgets are a thing. They already had the Klingon makeup/prosthetics. There was no way they were going back to square one and doing an entirely new thing for like, the two episodes Klingons were in.

Hell even in SNW where they did go ahead and improve them to actually look like Klingons... there are still some Discovery ones more in the background because... they have the makeup for them.

 

[The Wormhole]

We have much different definitions of "exact same".

They added texturing to the skin. That's it. What are you looking for, bringing back Michael Westmore to apply the makeup exactly he same way he did in the 90s?

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

The DSC Ferengi isn't really a big deal... whatever, it's in the future, Ferengi look different for some reason. Or maybe just THAT Ferengi looks different. I can deal with it/explain it away. My only issue with it is... why? Why did they feel the need to change things just for the sake of changing them?

Yeah, that's part of the problem I have. There are all kinds of reasons why an individual Ferengi may look different a thousand years in the future. B'Elanna Torres looks different to a regular Klingon even in the 'present day'. But when I look at B'Elanna I think 'Oh, she's a human/Klingon hybrid'. All the other details in Voyager are consistent with the other shows, so we can trust that the makeup is telling us something.

When I look at that Ferengi in Discovery I think 'Man, they really screwed up the makeup on that Ferengi'. I'm not speculating about the in-universe explanation because I can be pretty sure they're just changing things for the hell of it.

Also, that Ferengi in Picard s3 was absolutely perfect. He looked even more authentic than Quark.

 

[fireproof78]

then everything should have liked TOS, because it doesn't matter? Right?

If it were for only me, sure.

It's not. It's selfish of me to think it should only cater to my visual preferences.

Also, that Ferengi in Picard s3 was absolutely perfect. He looked even more authentic than Quark.

Not a high bar to clear.

 

[eschaton]

They added texturing to the skin. That's it. What are you looking for, bringing back Michael Westmore to apply the makeup exactly he same way he did in the 90s?

The two main issues with the Discovery Ferengi redesign are it lacks the browridge which runs from ear to ear, and it seems to lack the crooked, sharp teeth.

I can possibly forgive the latter, as we know Ferengi used tooth sharpeners. Some human cultures today file teeth to points. Maybe the mouth of broken glass was a cultural fashion thing.

I can't excuse the lack of a connected brow ridge though. It's like if a human lacked a forehead or something. Just so variant it comes across as a new species.

It's also important to note that Ferengi have appeared not only in Picard, but Prodigy and Lower Decks. To the extent that can be determined within the style, they share no visual continuity with Discovery.

 

[fireproof78]

The Romulans stole their brow ridge.