Poll Did the sequel trilogy add anything meaningful to the saga?

[DonIago]

I think most responders have been responding on the basis of whether the sequels added anything meaningful in the context of the Star Wars universe itself, not whether they were meaningful on an out-of-universe level.

On that basis, it's a bit unfair to accuse those with issues with the in-universe plot developments or such of "trying to ruin it" for anyone, not to mention a bit hyperbolic. Nobody's forcing anyone to read threads like this either, and if there's a real risk of one's opinion being ruined...maybe one should care less what others think?

 

[Kor]

Yes, the Sequel Trilogy presented an expanded view of the nature of "The Force" and what is possible through its power. While some of this had previously been explored in the books, and in the animated series Clone Wars and Rebels, not everybody is into all that tie-in stuff.

Kor

 

[Damian]

I think most responders have been responding on the basis of whether the sequels added anything meaningful in the context of the Star Wars universe itself, not whether they were meaningful on an out-of-universe level.

On that basis, it's a bit unfair to accuse those with issues with the in-universe plot developments or such of "trying to ruin it" for anyone, not to mention a bit hyperbolic. Nobody's forcing anyone to read threads like this either, and if there's a real risk of one's opinion being ruined...maybe one should care less what others think?

Agree. Whether I liked it or not or felt it added something or not is my own opinion. If someone is going to let that 'ruin it for them' then maybe they don't like it as much as they think they do.

Perfect example is me with Star Trek: Nemesis. Lots of people dislike, even hate that movie. I've participated in forums here where the movie is basically trashed. Has not affected my enjoyment of the film one iota. I still like it (in fact, over the years I've come to like it a bit more).

I also don't like when people assume someone does not like it because of their sex, creed, race, orientation or whatever the case may be. Personally, I happen to like the character Rey. She was one of the few highlights in what has otherwise been disappointing sequels for me. I'll say Princess Leia in the original trilogy was not someone to trifle with either

 

[Gaith]

Then don't ruin 'em!

Easier said than done. Years and years of fan expectations are not so easily overcome.

And yet, there are many recent cases of long-beloved characters being done justice, on the big and small screen alike...

I mean, if only Abrams had had the sense not to cast Eggs Benedict as Khan, he'd have made a near-perfect Thrawn on casting alone...

 

[DonIago]

Curiosity of mine-is enjoyment of these films taken away by these questions posted while not watching the film?

Because, as much as I love a good discussion, if I am watching the film and am engaged in the story then those questions matter less.

And I ask this because I had the same experience with other films, including ST 2009. I had no issue discerning Nero's motivation, or what had happened with Romulus and I didn't read the Countdown comic. Same with TFA. I haven't read many of the books for the ST, outside of the TLJ novel and the visual dictionaries. But, I can still pull together the different elements of the story while watching it.

Now, I don't think I'm the smartest guy in the world or anything but I would like to think that if I can figure it out then others can too.

I'm reminded of when I took a class on Persuasive Speaking and we needed to give speeches. Most of my classmates gave pretty ordinary, straightforward speeches, but there was this one guy who was very dynamic in his presentation style...but while most of my classmates really seemed to enjoy his speech, it left me cold, in that I felt like he was using style to cover up a lack of substance. Sort of like the way a magician guides the audience's attention in one direction while what really matters is going on somewhere else.

What especially bothered me about this was that I tried talking to the teacher about my concerns afterward, and I was left feeling as though he was smiling-and-nodding in regard to what I was saying but didn't really agree with any of it.

I think there are movies a lot like this guy's speech...a lot of people enjoy them in the heat of the moment, but some people will have trouble getting into it because they'll feel the film is choosing style over substance...and others will enjoy the film in the moment, but afterward will question what they saw, and will be bothered when they find answers lacking.

Now I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with making a movie that's style-over-substance...the whole original concept of SW is not an especially deep one...but my overall opinion of a film is impacted if I enjoy it in the moment but afterward find myself with questions that I feel the movie didn't address, and which I don't think I can come up with reasonable explanations for on my own (e.g. "Wait, how did Starkiller Base so completely incapacitate the Republic?").

It's more awkward if it's a film I've had fond memories of for a long time and then someone brings up such a question though. (e.g. "Did you notice how for the last half of Goldfinger 007 does almost nothing? And why does Goldfinger explain his evil plan to a bunch of lackeys he's just going to kill right after he explains to them?")

 

[Masiral]

I think most responders have been responding on the basis of whether the sequels added anything meaningful in the context of the Star Wars universe itself, not whether they were meaningful on an out-of-universe level.

On that basis, it's a bit unfair to accuse those with issues with the in-universe plot developments or such of "trying to ruin it" for anyone, not to mention a bit hyperbolic. Nobody's forcing anyone to read threads like this either, and if there's a real risk of one's opinion being ruined...maybe one should care less what others think?

Meaningful is a subjective term, especially when it comes to entertainment.

Agree. Whether I liked it or not or felt it added something or not is my own opinion. If someone is going to let that 'ruin it for them' then maybe they don't like it as much as they think they do.

Perfect example is me with Star Trek: Nemesis. Lots of people dislike, even hate that movie. I've participated in forums here where the movie is basically trashed. Has not affected my enjoyment of the film one iota. I still like it (in fact, over the years I've come to like it a bit more).

I also don't like when people assume someone does not like it because of their sex, creed, race, orientation or whatever the case may be. Personally, I happen to like the character Rey. She was one of the few highlights in what has otherwise been disappointing sequels for me. I'll say Princess Leia in the original trilogy was not someone to trifle with either

It has nothing to do with my opinion of the films being ruined. It has to do with the cloud of negativity and toxicity that have surrounded these films since a black stormtrooper appeared in the first teaser. Lately, it seems like expressing any positive opinion about the sequel trilogy is verboten. Almost every single post in this thread has been about eliminating this trilogy, about taking away something that has meant a great deal to me. That is what is being ruined - the feeling that it is okay to like these movies.

 

[fireproof78]

if there's a real risk of one's opinion being ruined...maybe one should care less what others think?

Agree. Whether I liked it or not or felt it added something or not is my own opinion. If someone is going to let that 'ruin it for them' then maybe they don't like it as much as they think they do.

Not necessarily, no. If one feels that expressing a positive opinion on something is going to be shot down immediately then it comes across as basically having to hide one's feelings for fear of being shouted at. It isn't about caring-it's about the slew of negativity that seems to come out.

And, I've seen this with the prequels, with the Abrams films and Discovery, in my brief time on the Internet. It doesn't take much for individuals to feel very much like they are isolated in their opinions.

Yes, the Sequel Trilogy presented an expanded view of the nature of "The Force" and what is possible through its power. While some of this had previously been explored in the books, and in the animated series Clone Wars and Rebels, not everybody is into all that tie-in stuff.

Kor

I quite agree. One thing that I absolutely enjoyed with the ST is the expansion of the Force and its abilities. The ST is a far more spiritual journey, a personal one, as it is an epic film.

Now I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with making a movie that's style-over-substance...the whole original concept of SW is not an especially deep one...but my overall opinion of a film is impacted if I enjoy it in the moment but afterward find myself with questions that I feel the movie didn't address, and which I don't think I can come up with reasonable explanations for on my own (e.g. "Wait, how did Starkiller Base so completely incapacitate the Republic?").

And this is where my confusion comes in, because I have the same questions with the OT and answers for them are perfectly acceptable, and its fine to explore within books and novels, comics and video games. But, the ST feels far more surface level in its engagement at times. Which, to your analogy, comes from the "style over substance" feel.

My confusion, for want of a better term, is that the same grace given to the OT, and even the PT now, isn't granted to the ST. And, part of me gets it. But, another part of me goes, "If I can figure this stuff out with the OT, back before the magic of the Interwebz, then why not now?" It's a mixture of emotions and confusion.

It has nothing to do with my opinion of the films being ruined. It has to do with the cloud of negativity and toxicity that have surrounded these films since a black stormtrooper appeared in the first teaser. Lately, it seems like expressing any positive opinion about the sequel trilogy is verboten.

And I think it just happens to be with this new thing in the franchise. And, let's be fair, there was a toxic atmosphere that permeated the PT release as well. This too shall pass.

 

[Damian]

It has nothing to do with my opinion of the films being ruined. It has to do with the cloud of negativity and toxicity that have surrounded these films since a black stormtrooper appeared in the first teaser. Lately, it seems like expressing any positive opinion about the sequel trilogy is verboten. Almost every single post in this thread has been about eliminating this trilogy, about taking away something that has meant a great deal to me. That is what is being ruined - the feeling that it is okay to like these movies.

I'm sorry you feel that way, but I'm not going to refrain from expressing my opinion in the fear that I might ruin it for someone else. As I noted, I'm one of a very small percentage of Trekkies that liked Nemesis. Anytime I go on a thread about Nemesis there is a lot of negativity toward that film. But I'm not about to let it affect my enjoyment of the film.

If you like the sequel trilogy then have at it. You're not alone, there are plenty of people that liked them. If I'm reading a thread that's bugging me or tiring me then I just tune out and go somewhere else.

I'm not sure why a black stormtrooper would phase anyone. I don't recall any controversy from any Star Wars fans I know (in fact I never heard anyone even bring it up until now). I guess maybe on the internet somewhere? It didn't phase me at all and I actually liked the character.

In fact, I can't really say I had an issue with any of the characters in the sequel trilogy at all. Rey, Kylo Ren, etc. For me it was the story that lost me.

 

[Damian]

Not necessarily, no. If one feels that expressing a positive opinion on something is going to be shot down immediately then it comes across as basically having to hide one's feelings for fear of being shouted at. It isn't about caring-it's about the slew of negativity that seems to come out.

True enough. I do try to avoid attacking other's opinions about things. I'm not afraid to express my own opinions and I love a good debate. And I'll explain things I like or don't like and why but I try to avoid belittling others because they hold a different opinion.

What bothers me is if someone says I shouldn't point out what I see as flaws in a film or TV show (or whatever it is) because it might ruin it for someone else. I'm not saying anyone here is necessarily doing that but what I meant in my comment is if you loved a movie or show then my expressing what I see as flaws in that shouldn't reduce your enjoyment of said movie or show. Now if I belittle someone for liking it, that's a different story.

 

[thribs]

There was also the issue of it not relating to the other episodes. While split they tell different stories, together they tell the story of Anakin. From his rise, to fall and redemption. Adding the sequel trilogy to that sort of ruins that thread, unless you see this as the Aftermath of Anakin’s life.

 

[fireproof78]

I meant in my comment is if you loved a movie or show then my expressing what I see as flaws in that shouldn't reduce your enjoyment of said movie or show.

That's a maturity thing, though. That idea of being able to love something, flaws and all, comes with age and maturity.

Adding the sequel trilogy to that sort of ruins that thread, unless you see this as the Aftermath of Anakin’s life.

Which it is.

 

[Damian]

That's a maturity thing, though. That idea of being able to love something, flaws and all, comes with age and maturity.

Then create a positive thread. A thread where people can discuss what they liked about a movie or show.

I did it a while back after a rewatch of Nemesis. I decided to create a positive review and I sort of asked people to focus on things they did like about it. And people here were actually pretty cooperative with it. First I found a few others that liked it as well. And even some people that didn't like it overall would comment on something they did like about it.

The same can be done for the sequel trilogy if someone wanted to do so. I mean, this thread is open ended. So you're going to get some love and some hate (and some in between). But I think you'll find if you created a 'why I loved The Last Jedi' or something along that line and ask people to talk about things they liked about it you might find some takers. For me it was some of the characters.

 

[fireproof78]

Then create a positive thread. A thread where people can discuss what they liked about a movie or show.

It certainly is an idea.

 

[Masiral]

Then create a positive thread. A thread where people can discuss what they liked about a movie or show.

I did it a while back after a rewatch of Nemesis. I decided to create a positive review and I sort of asked people to focus on things they did like about it. And people here were actually pretty cooperative with it. First I found a few others that liked it as well. And even some people that didn't like it overall would comment on something they did like about it.

The same can be done for the sequel trilogy if someone wanted to do so. I mean, this thread is open ended. So you're going to get some love and some hate (and some in between). But I think you'll find if you created a 'why I loved The Last Jedi' or something along that line and ask people to talk about things they liked about it you might find some takers. For me it was some of the characters.

Unfortunately, I feel that the positivity would only last around 10 posts. Nemesis was released 17 years ago; it's viewed in a different lens, much like the Prequel Trilogy is today. The Last Jedi in particular seems to draw negativity like moths to a flame.

 

[Gaith]

Lately, it seems like expressing any positive opinion about the sequel trilogy is verboten. Almost every single post in this thread has been about eliminating this trilogy, about taking away something that has meant a great deal to me.

I'm sorry you feel that way, but many of us have warm feelings to the OT characters that predate anyone's feelings for the ST characters by years, if not decades, and many of us believe these movies did the OT heroes dirty in (hugely successful) search of a quick buck. If your warm feelings toward the new movies are valid, than so, too, must our feelings of disappointment and annoyance. I didn't enjoy this new trilogy, and I do wish it had been very different, but I for one don't begrudge you your enjoyment of it one bit, and I certainly don't want to censor your opinion in any way.

The Last Jedi in particular seems to draw negativity like moths to a flame.

It also has excellent critical ratings and overwhelmingly positive coverage to this day on sites such as The AV Club and io9. (Seriously, both will go out of their way to endorse The Last Jedi at the slightest opportunity - just look at The AV Club's TRoS review.) So while I understand you may feel outnumbered by TLJ critics on this BBS, please understand that many of us who disliked TLJ similarly feel drowned out (and very often lumped in among bigots, as you yourself just did) on nearly all mainstream sites.

 

[Owain Taggart]

Curiosity of mine-is enjoyment of these films taken away by these questions posted while not watching the film?

Because, as much as I love a good discussion, if I am watching the film and am engaged in the story then those questions matter less.

I think it's a fair question. But to put it another way, I feel there are different levels of engagement, and I feel that if something is not adequately developed, then I feel my engagement is going to be less if I feel it's less interesting and I'm going to find myself less invested in things overall. But again, this is purely subjective as everyone is wanting something different. And that goes for movies and TV shows in general.

If your warm feelings toward the new movies are valid, than so, too, must our feelings of disappointment and annoyance.

Yeah, I'm sorry you feel that way as well. I don't think anyone's been too negative or toxic in this thread. We're discussing what hasn't worked for us in this trilogy and I think we've been fairly constructive, which I feel is perfectly valid. Nobody is saying liking the trilogy is wrong, because if then, why would we even be involved in discussions. We should be free to have positive and negative discussions just like there are both Jedi and Sith.

 

[Masiral]

It also has excellent critical ratings and overwhelmingly positive coverage to this day on sites such as The AV Club and io9. (Seriously, both will go out of their way to endorse The Last Jedi at the slightest opportunity - just look at The AV Club's TRoS review.) So while I understand you may feel outnumbered by TLJ critics on this BBS, please understand that many of us who disliked TLJ similarly feel drowned out (and very often lumped in among bigots, as you yourself just did) on nearly all mainstream sites.

Type in The Last Jedi on YouTube. See how many positive videos you can find there. I'm one of the biggest fans of The Last Jedi I know, and yet rants about how TLJ is horrible and has ruined SW are constantly appearing in my recommendations. And take a look at the comments sections on io9 and The AV Club. I'm sure you'll find a lot of negativity there; I always have.

And I did not call you or anyone else on this board a bigot.

 

[StarMan]

There was also the issue of it not relating to the other episodes. While split they tell different stories, together they tell the story of Anakin. From his rise, to fall and redemption. Adding the sequel trilogy to that sort of ruins that thread, unless you see this as the Aftermath of Anakin’s life.

Problem is, once you plug Palpatine back in -- "Hey guys - it was me all along. Again!", Anakin's entire story as the Chosen One is undone. The prequels and originals - whatever their faults may be - fit together and create a cohesive narrative. The sequels take elements from the original and toss them in a blender. What we end up with is a sequel trilogy that not only isn't meaningful, but undercuts one of the primary arcs of the entire saga.

 

[DigificWriter]

Problem is, once you plug Palpatine back in -- "Hey guys - it was me all along. Again!", Anakin's entire story as the Chosen One is undone.

This is a misconception.

Anakin did restore the Balance (both he and Luke tell Rey this directly in TRoS and TLJ, respectively); Palpatine returning just upsets that Balance again, which is where Rey, Ben, and their Force Dyad come into the picture.

 

[Qonundrum]

A simple question. Do you think that the sequel trilogy added anything to the saga?

A lot of good actors wasting their talents? Whatever else happened in the trilogy of tepid, the actors rose above a lot of awful or two-dimensional material.

I've wanted to ask this question for two years now, ever since I saw The Last Jedi and felt that it didn't add anything substantial to the Skywalker saga.

That's the one point I might disagree on. Luke has always been overly-eager to do big and bold things, even if not fully prepared. His making his school to rebuild the Jedi seems in-character and as he was starting from the ground up... just where were Yoda or Old Been-Wanna KennerBuy in force ghost form to guide him from certain points of view? Could TLJ have done the creation of Kylo differently? Perhaps. But I found it interesting, and less cliched than Luke becoming a Marty Stu. (But the fact they made Han what he became in TFA diluted the impact along with the character. It's amazing they didn't tarnish down Leia too.)

Then I thought… I'll wait two years to see if they redeem themselves with Episode IX. Personally, with The Rise of Skywalker now out and the saga complete, I don't think that we got a trilogy that enriched the saga as a whole.

The prequel trilogy, though it could have been done better, did give us quite a bit with the rise and fall of Anakin Skywalker, the rise of the empire, the development of some familiar characters, and so much more which lead right up to the original trilogy. But what did the sequel trilogy really offer? Sure, we got to see some old faces but what else did it really accomplish? Maybe you have some answers but I don't have much.

Well, it has an incredibly lowbrow retcon of the Emperor, everyone having new and far bigger force powers even Lucas would find too cornball and lazy (they're anything but epic), and Rey changing her name to Skywalker at the tail end for no reason other than envy and/or homage to what Luke sacrificed in TLJ, isn't that enough?

Now, I would like to see a Finn TV series, even if John Boyega half-understandably wants to get as far away from this wreck as possible. They could actually explore, in ways that even JJ didn't bother with in TFA, Finn's character and motivations and retcon IX. He's probably the most interesting character that could sustain a show. Actually, since there were so many other fake-out deaths, Ren didn't die either and wakes up and says it was all a dream with the zillion ships with deathstar-power ray guns put on them (which admittedly is a lot better in terms of being a threat than "Starkiller death star planet #3". Especially as ROTJ was death star #2, the only thing thought of for what was once deemed the final entry... which cut'n'paste the "To be a Jedi you must go meet the big bad Vader guy (again)" on top of everything else... )

Rey might work if you make a new TV show like "Bewitched" and she marries some yokel and she doesn't use her magic powers... Ridley was cool. Rey was a mixed bag at best and she starts out just like Luke, in a desert with someone else's robut too.

Poe was just cardboard... Okay, glossy cardboard but I'm not 15 anymore so I don't go to movies just to gawk at what I'll never get to date either which way.