Did the Romulans use Remans during the Earth-Romulan Wars?

[BrotherBenny]

Yes, two thousand years doesn't seem like much time in evolutionary terms, but when we're dealing with populations living in different environmental conditions, the process of adaptation can happen rather quickly. For instance, Tibetans diverged from Han Chinese only about 3000 years ago but have already experienced massive divergence in a number of genes that improve their ability to survive in oxygen-poor conditions.

That's a really interesting article, and shows that nature can indeed adapt very quickly to new conditions. Gives me better hope for the human race to survive once we destroy our planet.

On topic, it seems plausible that there were no ground-based battles during the Earth-Romulan War since it was an ideological war. The Romulans would just destroy everything from orbit as stated above. The Romulans were probably using the Remans as shock troops in their own empire, putting down rebellions or subjugating other races.

 

[Christopher]

How was it an ideological war? From what we've been shown, the Romulans' motive was political; they saw Earth's consolidation of a coalition between the major powers of the region as a potential threat to their security. And Earth's motive was simply one of self-defense.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Shatner's nutty Collision Course mentions Romulan robot soldiers on the ground during the Romulan War. I'm seeing green Transformers with pointy ears.


About Romulan ridges: Since Spock could move freely without disguise on Romulus it should be fair to say both subspecies of Romulan coexist in the 24th century, perhaps with the ridged ones holding a higher class status in the era, until (and off into speculation mode I go...) the events of Nemesis, where the Romulan political system had a major purge, perhaps allowing the return of smooth-headed Romulans to the top in time for Spock's mind-meld flashback in STXI. Nero's crew were a ratty bunch, with all sorts of bumps and lumps - I say as lower-class miner scum they probably have the blood of all sorts of subject races in their family trees.

Or, of course, all the Romulan types co-existed all the time and we just never saw them because they were always just off-screen.

 

[DimesDan]

That's a really interesting article, and shows that nature can indeed adapt very quickly to new conditions. Gives me better hope for the human race to survive once we destroy our planet.

We could destroy our civilisation and we could no doubt cause Earth to be uninhabitable for the vast majority of species, we do not and may never have the ability to actually destroy Earth itself though. Anyway, if in fact we did destroy the whole planet, would we have any right to exist afterwards?

 

[Ronald Held]

Even if there were DNA residue from Romulan solders, might it not be mistaken for Vulcan DNA, or thought to be comtaminated by Vulcan DNA? No one but a few Vulcans knew the connection during that war(canonically).

 

[Therin of Andor]

Maybe the leader of the Sundered, or some particularly heroic captain of the colony ships, happened to have a heavy brow ridge, and thus the colonists deemed that trait more attractive than a smooth brow.

We also know that Vulcans have arranged marriages. They may have deliberately bred out most traces of inherited forehead ridge by the time of TOS, to eradicate the visual reminders of the Sundering.

We went many years before seeing racial variations (a Vulcan with Asian features in ST III; Vulcans with dark skin in VOY), but there could easily be some Vulcans with ridges. Those hooded garments don't just protect them from the sun.

 

[Therin of Andor]

About Romulan ridges: Since Spock could move freely without disguise on Romulus it should be fair to say both subspecies of Romulan coexist in the 24th century, perhaps with the ridged ones holding a higher class status in the era

Since the two Romulan commanders in TOS had smooth foreheads, I'd say that the upper class tended to have that feature. It was the regular centurians and crew with their (perhaps ridged) foreheads hidden under metal helmets.

Data and Picard chose to go undercover with the common people (ie. the woman serving soup in "Unification"), hence the need for their artificial ridges.

 

[BrotherBenny]

How was it an ideological war? From what we've been shown, the Romulans' motive was political; they saw Earth's consolidation of a coalition between the major powers of the region as a potential threat to their security. And Earth's motive was simply one of self-defense.

I see the Romulans' Precept of Unlimited Expansion as an ideology, and Earth's consolidation of the coalition didn't really begin until the then-unknown Romulans began interfering in Vulcan affairs, which was why the Enterprise stepped in, to prevent a war between two prominent powers. It was the Romulans' behaviour that created the need for the Coalition which they further tried to destabilize and in doing so led to the formation of the Federation.

 

[Christopher]

I think that's stretching the definition of "ideological war." In that sense, you could describe virtually any war in those terms.

And I don't see the connection between "ideological war" and "no ground-based battles." If anything, I'd think just the opposite: if a war were driven by a belief system, the ones waging the war would probably want to invade, conquer, and convert others to that belief system. Just bombarding people and wiping them out from orbit is too detached to be ideological.

 

[Timo]

If one chooses to favor the theories where Romulan ridges are something they brought upon themselves through bioengineering, or the ones where they came to prominence because Vulcanoids are so genetically malleable and sensitive to environmental factors, one may also choose to believe that the Remans are more or less standard Vulcanoids - they just gained something beyond ridges due to one of the above mechanisms or the other.

Further, if Remans came to be that way, it wouldn't be impossible for the Duanesque Romulans to omit all mention of the obvious phenotype difference, and to treat Remans as biological equals (even if social and political inferiors). To do otherwise would be to admit to the fundamental "weakness" of the Vulcanoid genes or the lack of wisdom in self-engineering - to undermine the Romulan physiology-ideology itself.

OTOH, if Vulcanoids are that malleable, one might wonder if humans or other fellow Feds or CoP members wouldn't have known this from the get-go. If they did, then the use of Remans in the old war would not so effectively hide the fact that the enemy was of the Vulcanoid stock...

I guess the best hope of justifying the "Balance of Terror" concept of a blind war still lies in keeping that war relatively small and obscure. It might have been a big deal for the Stiles family - but the cattle wars of the 1880s-90s West were a big deal for some families as well, even though their military scope and historical significance is close to nil. If the enemy in one of those cattle wars happened to be intelligent bovines operating covertly and using cowboys as their proxies and cannon fodder, we might indeed be none the wiser. If the enemy in WWI were intelligent bovines, hiding the fact would be impossible...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Therin of Andor]

If one chooses to favor the theories where Romulan ridges are something they brought upon themselves through bioengineering, or the ones where they came to prominence because Vulcanoids are so genetically malleable and sensitive to environmental factors

The canonically described proto-Vulcans of "Who Watches the Watchers?" (TNG) seems to suggest that the the ancestors of all vulcanoids had forehead ridges. Whether the Vulcan or Romulan scientists started tinkering after that is unknown. Canonically, at least.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I've got it!

Romulans and Proto-Vulcans developed their ridges as a result of an emotional lifetime of frowning!

 

[Timo]

I'm still sticking to my facial erection theory: virile warriors would flaunt their bulging foreheads and perpetuate their bloodline, old men and ascetic pacifists would be flaccid by necessity or by choice - and whoever could afford genetic engineering or other intervention to boost their ridges, would.

...I wonder how common copper-blooded humanoids are in the Trek universe. If Romulans and/or Remans bobbed their eartips when going to war with humans, could their corpses really tell anything useful to their enemies?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[ProtoAvatar]

...I wonder how common copper-blooded humanoids are in the Trek universe. If Romulans and/or Remans bobbed their eartips when going to war with humans, could their corpses really tell anything useful to their enemies?

Timo Saloniemi

Cooper based blood is blue, not green - such as in the case of snails.

 

[Timo]

However, Spock's blood is both green and copper-based, so there must be some subtle difference between Spock and a snail.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Either that, or Spock got green blood because it looked alien and cool, and then copper was added...just because (not because of its connection with the blood's color; not even copper oxyde - any of its forms - is green).

 

[Timo]

That's quite likely, yes. Canon doesn't describe the role of copper in Vulcan blood in any way, after all - the idea that it is copper "based" is a noncanon formulation.

Come to think of it, I can't find any canon reference to there being copper in the Vulcan blood. Anybody remember any relevant bits of dialogue?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[David cgc]

It was when he was immune to... something. Come on, Google!

Okay, it was "Obsession." He was explaining that the cloud creature couldn't attack him because it eats iron and he didn't have iron in his blood.

KIRK: Don't misunderstand my next question. Mister Spock, why aren't you dead?
MCCOY: It's that green blood of his.
SPOCK: My haemoglobin is based on copper, not iron.
MCCOY: I'll bet he left a bad taste in the creature's mouth, too.
SPOCK: Colloquially expressed, but essentially correct.
KIRK: Yes. The scent is different. I think I understand something now.

 

[Timo]

Hmm... "Haemoglobin that is based on copper" sounds like it would still have iron (or else it wouldn't be haemoglobin) and would have additional copper serving as a "base" (whether in strict chemical or some more figurative sense is anybody's guess). But that could be Spock using scientifically inaccurate baby talk in the presence of humans.

In any case, green blood with copper in it. Perhaps the two things are related, perhaps not. Thanks for digging up the canon reference!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ronald Held]

Spock's blood has some human components in it, so maybe (iron based) hemoglobin is a minor component?