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Did the PT delay epic post-Undiscovered Country Star Treks?

Thread title question. Go.

  • Absolutey - it's the Flanelled One's fault for sure!

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Quite possibly - I could see that.

    Votes: 1 5.3%
  • Nah, Paramound wouldn't have done epic TNG movies anyways

    Votes: 16 84.2%
  • No frickin' clue!

    Votes: 2 10.5%

  • Total voters
    19

Gaith

Vice Admiral
Admiral
This is a theory/wild fan-speculation I first made on the SF/F board, buried in a larger/more general PT thread; now that I've polished it up for my brand-new Star Wars Prequel Rejection Society blog, I thought I'd share it here as well.


Did the PT delay epic post-Undiscovered Country Star Treks?

There’s a pretty broad (and, in my opinion, entirely accurate) consensus that Star Trek XI is a better movie than any of the Star Wars prequels. Sure, XI sexed and revved up its franchise to the point where many old stalwarts (myself included) got mildly to severely disoriented, but for all its canonical and tonal faults and/or departures, it at least was a fun and satisfying adventure. And heck, given its not-so-subtle lifts from the Lucasfilm series (the new warp, ship-phaser and other effects, as well as the overall tone and pace), I consider XI the best Star Wars movie since Jedi.

Here’s a question, though: did the PT not only drag Wars into the gutter, but put a crimp in Trek‘s style, too? I suspect that, without the prequels, we just might have had bigger and better TNG movies. To wit: the PT was announced in ’94, so from then until 2005, the Paramount bosses knew that there’d be three movies released over a six-year period that, due to SW‘s huge popularity, Lucas’ budget and the story’s inevitable scope, would dwarf any TNGs in terms of action, production design and all-around epic-ness. Why bother compete if you can’t win? So, the suits instead insisted upon cheaper, more character-based Trek outings… but over the course of a seven-year TV run, TNG had pretty well used up its cast’s potential character stories already, so their movies weren’t too good, either awkwardly incorporating TOS (Generations), rehashing TNG‘s glory days (First Contact), recycling TNG‘s merely average days (Insurrection), and just plain ripping off TWOK (Nemesis).* We never saw any Dominion War movies, for instance, in spite of its natural cinematic potential… could the PT have been part of the reason why?

And is it, in short, any coincidence that the first post-Undiscovered Country/PT announcement Trek movie released after ROTS was the first to pack Wars-like scope, thrills and action?

Did GL’s film fiascoes kneecap a whole generation of films in both franchises?

*Which isn’t to say that the TNG movies were worse than the prequels, because they totally weren’t.




Your thoughts? :)
 
So Paramount decided to make the TNG movies smaller since it thought they couldn't compete with a movie that won't be out for another five year?
 
Yeahhhhh... what the last poster said.


all of the TNG movies except for NEM came out before the SW prequels. I don't think the prequels really had much of an effect of them, but they may have been an influence on Star Trek XI.

As for your comparisons, I think that TPM compares poorly with the TNG movies and Trek XI, but I think AOTC (with the exception of the romantic dialogue) and ROTS compare favorably against any of the TNG films except FC.
 
either awkwardly incorporating TOS (Generations), rehashing TNG‘s glory days (First Contact), recycling TNG‘s merely average days (Insurrection), and just plain ripping off TWOK (Nemesis).

I can only disagree with that. First Contact didn't rehash any of TNG's glory days, it was a total departure from the TV show, it was all new and shiny, darker, action packed, with a dose of horror, and mostly everyone liked it (that's what I remember). The opening space battle was considered one of the best since the space battle in Return of the Jedi.

Insurrection "rehashed" TNG's glory days. Put the crew against a moral dilemma that reveals something about human nature.



What annoys me is this kind of revisionism regarding the TNG movies. Generations did well, First Contact did better, Insurrection did not as good but still wasn't bad. But since Nemesis, everyone says that they could already see TNG failing before Generations even came out, which is pretty much bullshit.
 
either awkwardly incorporating TOS (Generations), rehashing TNG‘s glory days (First Contact), recycling TNG‘s merely average days (Insurrection), and just plain ripping off TWOK (Nemesis).

I can only disagree with that. First Contact didn't rehash any of TNG's glory days, it was a total departure from the TV show, it was all new and shiny, darker, action packed, with a dose of horror, and mostly everyone liked it (that's what I remember). The opening space battle was considered one of the best since the space battle in Return of the Jedi.

Insurrection "rehashed" TNG's glory days. Put the crew against a moral dilemma that reveals something about human nature.



What annoys me is this kind of revisionism regarding the TNG movies. Generations did well, First Contact did better, Insurrection did not as good but still wasn't bad. But since Nemesis, everyone says that they could already see TNG failing before Generations even came out, which is pretty much bullshit.


You're right that the first two performed solidly, but INS' performance was a pretty steep drop-off, from something like $92 million to something like $65-$70 million, barely breaking even. But your overall point that the movies were succesfull in the beginning is true.
 
Paramount didn't give Berman the budget to make the movies all that epic. Maybe it they had more money they could've gone more epic.
 
Yeahhhhh... what the last poster said.


all of the TNG movies except for NEM came out before the SW prequels. I don't think the prequels really had much of an effect of them, but they may have been an influence on Star Trek XI.
Fair enough... maybe my wild-ass speculation only really applies to NEM and the '02-'09 intra-movie gap, then? :p
 
Well, if you're arguing that SW had an influence on Star Trek XI, I don't think you'll get much of an argument.
 
Well, if you're arguing that SW had an influence on Star Trek XI, I don't think you'll get much of an argument.
That's a fact openly acknowledged by Abrams; my wild-ass theory goes a bit further. ;)

Having to explain "PT", really? :p
 
No, they didn't.

Nothing about Paramount's treatment of Star Trek as a film franchise up to that time suggests that they had any interest left in trying to make the films into tentpole blockbuster types of events - once burned by ST:TMP, they consistently aimed for more modest budgets and (up to a point) more dependable returns. Everything about the way TNG was shifted from television into the movies points to a deliberate continuation of that approach.
 
No, they didn't.

Nothing about Paramount's treatment of Star Trek as a film franchise up to that time suggests that they had any interest left in trying to make the films into tentpole blockbuster types of events - once burned by ST:TMP, they consistently aimed for more modest budgets and (up to a point) more dependable returns. Everything about the way TNG was shifted from television into the movies points to a deliberate continuation of that approach.

Yeah, they never seemed too interested in investing a lot of money into Trek after TMP. After that, it was done as cheaply as possible, which seemed to only really be noticeable for TFF. It was only after the franchise imploded, and Paramount realized they needed to build up their brands more, did they decide they wanted to really invest in the film franchise.
 
Fair enough. You've convinced me, and the blog post in question has been removed. :)
 
No, they didn't.

Nothing about Paramount's treatment of Star Trek as a film franchise up to that time suggests that they had any interest left in trying to make the films into tentpole blockbuster types of events - once burned by ST:TMP, they consistently aimed for more modest budgets and (up to a point) more dependable returns. Everything about the way TNG was shifted from television into the movies points to a deliberate continuation of that approach.

Yeah, they never seemed too interested in investing a lot of money into Trek after TMP. After that, it was done as cheaply as possible, which seemed to only really be noticeable for TFF. It was only after the franchise imploded, and Paramount realized they needed to build up their brands more, did they decide they wanted to really invest in the film franchise.

Hm... curious what the budget of Abramstrek 2 will be. 150 million again? 200 million? Or just like 70 million?
 
No, they didn't.

Nothing about Paramount's treatment of Star Trek as a film franchise up to that time suggests that they had any interest left in trying to make the films into tentpole blockbuster types of events - once burned by ST:TMP, they consistently aimed for more modest budgets and (up to a point) more dependable returns. Everything about the way TNG was shifted from television into the movies points to a deliberate continuation of that approach.

Yeah, they never seemed too interested in investing a lot of money into Trek after TMP. After that, it was done as cheaply as possible, which seemed to only really be noticeable for TFF. It was only after the franchise imploded, and Paramount realized they needed to build up their brands more, did they decide they wanted to really invest in the film franchise.

Hm... curious what the budget of Abramstrek 2 will be. 150 million again? 200 million? Or just like 70 million?

They'll probably give them about as much, but maybe a little more to give them the ability to entice some more A-list actors.
 
Here’s a question, though: did the PT not only drag Wars into the gutter, but put a crimp in Trek‘s style, too? I suspect that, without the prequels, we just might have had bigger and better TNG movies.
No, the TNG movies simply followed the standard summer popcorn movie template and sputtered because the TNG characters really weren't that compelling overall.

I also love to blame the PT for as much stuff as possible :D, global warming, dandruff, my cat barfing at 3am, but I gotta give em a pass on this one...
 
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