Did the Denobulans have to forsake Eugenics to join the UFP?

[Guy Gardener]

Or maybe that's why they didn't join up, which could be why we never saw them in any of the earlier episodes of Star Trek? But Archer and Phlox had a conversation in cold Station 12 I think were they decided that the Denobulan's were more ethically evolved than mankind that they were grown up enough to use Genetic engineering responsibly for the last few hundred years with out there species being forced to the brink by some sort of insane war between bigots.

From what Ross said in "Dr Bashir I presume, it seems that the UFP laws against genegineering goes across the board despite the experiments Pulaski was allowed in that crappy season 2 TNG I forget the name of... Seems like a deal breaker to me.

I mean it's basically prohibition and all the problems which the US went through in the 30s that people just went to be happy and the government tells them no. What if some other country volunteered to be a 51st state during that period if and only if they were still allowed to keep their booze?

hell maybe the Denobulans had their Eugenics War eventually and they died out from that and that is why they're not seen from in the earlier episodes. Retroactive continuity is ace, no?

 

[LadyNRA]

It certainly would be scarey to thinkt that they killed themselves off due to eugenics but I don't think they did that. They seemed to have made wise decisions at least in that regard. What I would have been leary of would have been that they invented something they couldn't handle like the nano-probes and something went wrong. Like with the borg, only that was intentional. I'm thinking something more unexpected and not done for the sake of 'perfection', though they clearly also weren't worried about modifying themselves with artificial organs to save lives and they didn't look down on the Binars either. Personally, I still think they may have been decimated by the seismic problems hinted at in The Breach or perhaps by other enemies we haven't found out about yet. Clearly wars were still going on between Enterprise and TOS. And while they had a history of being fierce and aggressive fighters 300 years in the past, their disinterest in joining the Federation immediately might have been their undoing later on when support was needed.

 

[Trekwatcher]

Guy Gardener said:
Or maybe that's why they didn't join up, which could be why we never saw them in any of the earlier episodes of Star Trek? But Archer and Phlox had a conversation in cold Station 12 I think were they decided that the Denobulan's were more ethically evolved than mankind that they were grown up enough to use Genetic engineering responsibly for the last few hundred years with out there species being forced to the brink by some sort of insane war between bigots.

From what Ross said in "Dr Bashir I presume, it seems that the UFP laws against genegineering goes across the board despite the experiments Pulaski was allowed in that crappy season 2 TNG I forget the name of... Seems like a deal breaker to me.

I mean it's basically prohibition and all the problems which the US went through in the 30s that people just went to be happy and the government tells them no. What if some other country volunteered to be a 51st state during that period if and only if they were still allowed to keep their booze?

hell maybe the Denobulans had their Eugenics War eventually and they died out from that and that is why they're not seen from in the earlier episodes. Retroactive continuity is ace, no?

I have always scratched my head about this bit from Phlox, largely because it goes against much of what he said in "Dear Doctor." In that episode, he argues against making a genetic change in the dominant humanoid species as it would be "unnatural" yet in CS12 he seems to advocate genetic engineering.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: Did the Denobulans have to forsake Eugenics to join the

Compare boxing or weightlifting, to modeling. Now if you're going to take steroids to become huge and pretty and enter a competitive sport like boxing or weightlifting in direct competition with others not on a level playing field it's cheating... Although, I suppose with modeling you're still competing with others for work and money so it's still not fair... Thinking like I do, I can even argue that masturbation is a competitive sport... So really there is no cosmetic or competitive excuse for... Well unless someone starts promoting the "All-Steriod-Olympics?" but then a couple people die from abuse and that goes out the window unless it's being held in Thailand?

Remember Phlox playing basket ball? Was that natural or built into his genome by genegineers? How much of his genetic legacy has been faked? Staying awake for 51 weeks a year? Now that's right fucked up! remember that TNG episode where the crew went insane because they couldn't dream? A Denobulan ship wouldn't notice!

Natural selection had already put a creature at the top of the food chain on Denobula... Until they discovered other life in the galaxy, they probably assumed that they weren't taking advantage of anyone, or in competition with anyone anymore other than themselves as a unified people in comand of the same technology with the same limitations since it's doubtful they would figure out interstellar travel before even the most basic genetic engineering technology.

Then again sharing this technology with other races would be slightly like what the Borg did except that it's ethically undeveloped folkes "playing with shiney thing" and mutilating there genomes until they're unrecognizable because they can't say "no" like a wino sleeping over in a distillery.

Which sounds "Prime Directiveish" to me.

 

[LadyNRA]

Re: Did the Denobulans have to forsake Eugenics to join the

Well, they also didn't say what kind of genegtic engineering they did. For instance it may have simply been to eradicate many of the diseases they have (of course we know they haven't gotten rid of all of them), or perhaps it was to eradicate physical deformities. Phlox didn't specify, just as the writers didn't specify how much use they made of nanites and for what purpose they were used--specifically.

Clearly he had some gifts with dexterity that were natural because he mentioned that his own people knew about his somewhat unusual degree of dexterity. It wasn't treated like a genetic enhancement, just a 'gift'.

As for the genetic changes mentioned in Dear Doctor, there is no comparison here because the changes made to Denobulans, whatever they may have been, were amongst their own people. Phlox wasn't willing to step in and change the genetics of another species. He wans't opposed to them finding the answers to this dilemma themselves, just that he wasn't going to help them do it. I didn't see the genetic manipulation implied about concerning Denobulans as being something major which would alter the entire species in some way.

As for sleeping, they are different from us. Perhaps they really don't need to sleep. It may not be a genetic tampering issue though I suppose it could be. They get a lot done. Also our dreams serve a specific purpose necessary for our overall health. I gathered that Denobulans (from something I read somewhere) only dream of past events when hibernating. Their dreaming doesn't seem necessary. Also, I got the impression that they will sleep if their bodies seriously need it (other than hibernation), just that it doesn't happen often. They do rest (note Phlox resting on his bed, but awake, in Doctor's Orders). He's in his Pj's. He's hanging out on the bed, not just sitting around the whole time. So I would venture a guess that if exhausted, they may drop off to sleep now and then. Just a guess of course.