Did TATV show a contempt for the characters and actors?

[Voth commando1]

Okay so TATV which I haven't watched just yet is near universally maligned but Trek fandom. I vaguely understand its premise with the whole holedeck/Pegasus thing and Archer's speech and Trip's death.

While these parts were certainly controversial can someone explain to me how they demonstrate a hatred the writers had more the characters/actors/fans/show?

 

[MacLeod]

Well I think part of is down to the fact that the Enterprise finalé is a TNG episode.

 

[Takeru]

While these parts were certainly controversial can someone explain to me how they demonstrate a hatred the writers had more the characters/actors/fans/show?

It doesn't show that, I think when Berman and Braga called it a valentine to the fans they genuinely thought that's what they were doing.
They brought TNG characters back, put a lot of effort into recreating partial TNG sets, included something meaningful for the entire franchise (the founding of the federation) and personal drama for the Enterprise crew with Trip's death.
On paper none of these ideas are bad, it just all went horribly wrong. It was too much TNG and the script put way too much emphasis on Riker's conflict, the founding of the federation was nothing more than a backdrop and Trip sacrificed himself so that Archer wouldn't be late to a speech.

It just wasn't a good episode, these things happen. All Trek shows have had bad episodes, many much worse than These are the Voyages, it's just unfortunate that this crappy episode was the series finale.

 

[2takesfrakes]

Having the ENT cast portray holographic representations of themselves in an Historical holo-novel for an actual, living character from another series is where the controversy really lies. Especially, as the only seeming justification for it is to offer some pretense that Trip's death might've been, false ... and untrue. As well, Riker and Deanna Troi were portrayed at an age that was far younger than the actors that played them, which made it all seem even more 'forced.'

Taken on its own terms, however, TATV is an entertaining diversion. There's nothing inherently wrong with it, as a form of escapism, outside of some failed logic. But every show has that. "Why didn't he just use his phaser?!!" "Oh! Then the show would've been over, right away." That sort of failing is in practically every episode of the franchise, it almost can't be helped -- though, I admit, it's irksome, at times. Also, I'm not fond of holodeck adventures, with their whole premise of "... it never (really) happened." It's like a "dream sequence" which is often a colossal waste of time.

Nevertheless, I am a fan of TATV. With Jonathan Frakes leading the journey, the final episode of -ENT- was in $afe hands.

 

[urbandefault]

 

[Shikarnov]

I don't think it was showing contempt at all; I think it was a difference of perspective. For many of the creatives, this was the big goodbye after working together since the 80s, and TATV was a way for them to bring closure to that entire period of time. For fans, however, each of the shows were much more discrete, and TATV came off as being disrespectful of Star Trek: Enterprise as its own chapter in the story.

They might have done better to have separate finales. A proper one for Enterprise, and a separate "TV Movie" for the franchise as a whole.

As an aside, The Good That Men Do, a novel by Andy Mangels and Michael A. Martin, puts an interesting spin on TATV and, for me anyway, really transformed the story into something magnificent. (Indeed, the entire Enterprise Relaunch series, and its Romulan Wars and Rise of the Federation successors are all quite excellent).

 

[JonVP]

I appreciate the thought behind TATV, bringing it all full circle with TNG and ENT. But somehow the story just didn’t work for me. The Pegasus was one of my favorite TNG episodes. But I never really understood why having Riker relive Archer’s final mission on the holodeck could have any relevance to his moral dilemma in that episode.

 

[Anna Yolei]

The Cliff Notes version:
-WAY too much TNG naval gazing
-The stupid nonsensical framing device of tying into "The Pegasus"
-Trip's ham-fisted death, especially given he bit the bullet for Public Enemy #1 of the fandom, Archer
-the off screen break up of the fandom's favorite pairing, coupled with Trips death

On paper, not a bad concept but it was obvious that TIIC had mentally checked out of Enterprise and had no fucks to give about the show.

 

[USS Triumphant]

I've been informed in the meantime (and I guess I believe it) that this isn't true, but in addition to seeming disrespectful to Enterprise, it seemed to some of us at the time that they were benching Enterprise early (when the 4th season had finally gotten good) and trying to use its finale to set up what they really wanted to do: a Riker-as-Captain series. A lot of the carelessness with the Enterprise elements of TATV seemed to back that up, too - Trip's senseless death, Archer's weird-ass gazelle speech, the ranks of characters at the founding of the Federation, etc.

 

[urbandefault]

In a nutshell, the show was cancelled--dead. The story had been wrapped up in the two episodes preceding the finale. Right or wrong, Berman and Braga decided to end the show with TATV. It's over now, time to move on.

That said, I don't think it's all that bad.

 

[2takesfrakes]

Obviously, I am an official member of the Jonathan Frakes Fan Club, but I must say: I'm well-pleased that "he Adventures of Captain Riker" never went to series. I would not have wanted to see it and I know for a fact that Frakes would not have refused such an opportunity ... to my chagrin. Having an aging Captain was fine for TNG, but I don't want to see STAR TREK relying on that formulae. How about a Captain under 30, for a change? As well, I tend not to prefer "crossover" episodes, but it was - and is - so charming to see Frakes and Marina zipping up their uniforms, that it's a pleasure having them appear in -ENTERPRISE-. After all, Frakes has been in every other STAR TREK spin-off, so I kind of felt it was overdue, anyway ...

 

[Voth commando1]

In a nutshell, the show was cancelled--dead. The story had been wrapped up in the two episodes preceding the finale. Right or wrong, Berman and Braga decided to end the show with TATV. It's over now, time to move on.

That said, I don't think it's all that bad.

Yes but why are people still talking about the Iliad or Sherlock Holmes I mean their both dead as well.

 

[urbandefault]

Yes but why are people still talking about the Iliad or Sherlock Holmes I mean their both dead as well.

Are there Iliad and Holmes forums where people bitch about the same things over and over and learn nothing from the process? Honest question, I have no idea.

 

[Paradise City]

It was kinda just a very wonky mess. There was no malice there but it was clumsily thoughtless against the Enterprise ensemble in their finale and their attempt to crowbar in TNG was very mangled. The Pegasus episode was badly misremembered. So this entire episode just collapsed. Which was a shame and a bit strange because the episodes on the run up to this were actually quite good.

 

[urbandefault]

Face it, by that time nobody was watching anyway. The "valentine" thing was a lame cry for fans to come back one last time.

 

[Nerys Myk]

IIRC it was an old script/plot they had lying around that they dusted off to use.

 

[Dukhat]

Okay so TATV which I haven't watched just yet is near universally maligned but Trek fandom. I vaguely understand its premise with the whole holedeck/Pegasus thing and Archer's speech and Trip's death.

While these parts were certainly controversial can someone explain to me how they demonstrate a hatred the writers had more the characters/actors/fans/show?

There was no "hatred" from the writers. Berman and Braga have both gone on record to state that they actually thought fans would love TATV, and that they wrote the episode with the best of intentions. They've also gone on record to state that the finished product was a mistake and that too many fans hated it for them to be wrong.

But because all we saw was the finished product, many people don't know the reality of TATV. UPN only gave them an extremely short time to produce it, and they were only given one hour instead of the traditional two for series finales. So the whole project was extremely rushed.

 

[Orac]

I liked it.

I am unable to demonstrate a hatred the writers had for the characters/actors/fans/show as that hatred only exists in the minds of some who have mistaken some hateful opinions they have read on the infranet for facts.

 

[Amalak]

There was no "hatred" from the writers. Berman and Braga have both gone on record to state that they actually thought fans would love TATV, and that they wrote the episode with the best of intentions. They've also gone on record to state that the finished product was a mistake and that too many fans hated it for them to be wrong.

But because all we saw was the finished product, many people don't know the reality of TATV. UPN only gave them an extremely short time to produce it, and they were only given one hour instead of the traditional two for series finales. So the whole project was extremely rushed.

It wouldn't have been much better if it had an additional hour.

 

[Spot261]

Many would say it would be better with one less.

To me it seems the offence revolved mostly around the way it cast ENT as being essentially worthless without TNG, a second rate offshoot which can only hope to have meaning within the context of it's parent show.