Did Starfleet Command Approve This, Kirk?

[Poltargyst]

There's not a chance in hell Fox could have possibly had the authority to give Kirk orders or to override him in any way.

Kirk, as captain of the Enterprise, is the absolute law. On the ship, Kirk is, quite literally, God. He's the captain, so what he says, GOES. That's the end of it.

Fox is not a member of Starfleet, he has absolutely no right to order Kirk around in any way. Kirk could have given Fox the gigantic middle finger and there wouldn't have been a damn thing Fox could do about it.

Hell, as much of a pain in the ass as Fox was, Kirk would have been well within his rights to confine Fox to quarters. I'm surprised he DIDN'T do that.

Fox is only an ambassador, nothing more. He carries no legal weight as far as Kirk is concerned. I mean, it's not like Fox is the Federation president or anything like that (under Federation law, the president is Commander in Chief of Starfleet, but Fox was certainly not that). Fox was just trading on his bluster, thinking that this would make Kirk back down. Fortunately, Fox lost.

As far as Kirk's actions towards Eminiar and Vendikar are concerned? It's been said. Kirk was defending his ship against a hostile intruder. He had the right to do whatever he wanted in that regard. The Prime Directive is null and void; Kirk's right of self defense is ABSOLUTE.

The Omega Glory transcript...

"Captain's log, supplemental. The Enterprise has left the Exeter and moved into close planet orbit. Although it appears the infection may strand us here the rest of our lives, I face an even more difficult problem. A growing belief that Captain Tracey has been interfering with the evolution of life on this planet. It seems impossible. A star captain's most solemn oath is that he will give his life, even his entire crew, rather than violate the Prime Directive."

Kirk should have allowed his ship to be destroyed rather than violate the Prime Directive. Do I agree with that? No, but it's canon.

 

[Poltargyst]

Out of curiosity, do you know of any human civilizations that haven't followed the same general pattern development and the others? Because from where I'm sitting I'm not seeing any outliers.

I'm not sure I understand the question. There are cultures that are still living in a way we call primitive who haven't developed what we call civilization. Is that what you mean?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The Omega Glory transcript...

"Captain's log, supplemental. The Enterprise has left the Exeter and moved into close planet orbit. Although it appears the infection may strand us here the rest of our lives, I face an even more difficult problem. A growing belief that Captain Tracey has been interfering with the evolution of life on this planet. It seems impossible. A star captain's most solemn oath is that he will give his life, even his entire crew, rather than violate the Prime Directive."

Kirk should have allowed his ship to be destroyed rather than violate the Prime Directive. Do I agree with that? No, but it's canon.

It may be canon, but it's also meaningless legalistic bullshit.

I don't care what the damn episode says. Real or fictional, a captain's most solemn oath is to PROTECT HIS SHIP AND CREW. Anything other than that is irrelevant. To all bloody blazes with the fucking Prime Directive.

 

[Poltargyst]

It may be canon, but it's also meaningless legalistic bullshit.

I don't care what the damn episode says. Real or fictional, a captain's most solemn oath is to PROTECT HIS SHIP AND CREW. Anything other than that is irrelevant. To all bloody blazes with the fucking Prime Directive.

This is one of the things I like about Kirk. He will ignore rules and do the right thing out of compassion.

 

[Spock's Barber]

Instead of listening to Fox, Kirk should have communicated with Starfleet Command and voiced his opposition to intruding on Emeniar.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

And Starfleet Command, as is its right, would have surely told Fox where to shove it.

 

[Nerys Myk]

And Starfleet Command, as is its right, would have surely told Fox where to shove it.

Or they would tell Kirk to shut up and follow Fox’s orders. Starfleet works for the Federation, after all.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Or they would tell Kirk to shut up and follow Fox’s orders.

In which case Kirk would have, as is HIS right, told them to go fuck themselves.

As I said, Fox had no legal authority over Kirk. There is literally no reason why Kirk should have ever listened to a word Fox said.

Fox is not the president of the Federation, nor is he anywhere near close to being a senior Starfleet officer. Fox is just a diplomat. As far as Kirk is concerned, Fox is a doormat, and should be treated appropriately.

Diplomats do not control Starfleet; Starfleet controls Starfleet.

 

[DonIago]

Diplomats do not control Starfleet; Starfleet controls Starfleet.

Not exactly. Starfleet is a branch of the Federation and is subject to the oversight of the Federation Council.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Not exactly. Starfleet is a branch of the Federation and is subject to the oversight of the Federation Council.

Which still doesn't include Robert Fox.

Seriously. Fox is, as I've said, only a diplomat. He's not the president. He's not a member of the Council. His opinions and orders carry no weight with Kirk. As far as Kirk gives a shit, Fox is irrelevant.

Now of course Fox would be well within his rights to take up any resulting matters with the Federation Council. But Kirk would also be within HIS rights to tell Fox to shove it up his ass.

And since Kirk, as captain of the Enterprise, is the absolute rule of law in the field....you can imagine how that would work out. Kirk IS THE LAW. He is Starfleet. He is GOD. Nothing happens other than his say-so. Fox can't do sweet diddly squat about it. So Fox might as well shut the fuck up and KNOW HIS PLACE, and there's not a Federation court in the quadrant that would dispute this.

 

[Spock's Barber]

Spock should use the Vulcan Death Grip on Fox.

 

[Nerys Myk]

In which case Kirk would have, as is HIS right, told them to go fuck themselves.

As I said, Fox had no legal authority over Kirk. There is literally no reason why Kirk should have ever listened to a word Fox said.

Again he works for Starfleet, who works for the Federation. That gives Fox, through the Federation "legal authority" over Kirk. IIRC, this is a diplomatic mission, hence Fox's presence.
The diplomatic corps seem to have greater authority than a ship's captain in some situations

KIRK: Do? I intend to continue the search. Foot by foot, inch by inch, by candlelight if necessary, until the last possible moment. And if you'd keep your nose off my bridge, I'd be thankful.
FERRIS: I'm sure the authorities will be pleased by your diligence, Captain. I'm not sure they'll appreciate the way you address a High Commissioner.
KIRK: I'm in command here, Mister Ferris.
FERRIS: You are, Captain. For another two hours and forty two minutes.

As do some bureaucrats

KIRK: Mister Lurry, if there's no emergency, why did you issue a priority one distress call?
BARIS: That was my order, Captain.
LURRY: Captain Kirk, this is Nilz Baris. He's out from Earth to take charge of the development project on Sherman's Planet.
KIRK: And that gives you the authority to put an entire quadrant on defence alert?
DARVIN: Mister Baris is the Federation Undersecretary in Charge of Agricultural Affairs in this quadrant.
SPOCK; That gives him the authority.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The diplomatic corps seem to have greater authority than a ship's captain in some situations

Only if Kirk says so.

And I hardly need to repeat myself, but the simple fact remains - in the field, Kirk is the captain of the Enterprise. In his domain, Kirk - any starship captain - is ABSOLUTE ruler. Nothing happens on his ship other than what the captain says.

 

[UssGlenn]

I'm not sure I understand the question. There are cultures that are still living in a way we call primitive who haven't developed what we call civilization. Is that what you mean?

Those societies are just on a different spot on the timeline. None of them are doing anything particularly different on a fundamental level that the ancestors of France or China did thousands of years ago. Put the right environmental pressure on them and add a few thousand years and they would go through the same stages of agriculture, iron age, ect that other regions have experienced.

 

[BK613]

LOL the episode explicitly states at least twice that Fox has the authority.

FOX: I have my orders, Captain, and now you have yours. You will proceed on course. Achieve orbit status and just leave the rest to me.You're well aware that my mission gives me the power of command. I now exercise it. You will proceed on course. That's a direct order.​

and

FOX: This is a diplomatic matter. If you check your regulations, you'll find that my orders get priority.​

 

[Nerys Myk]

Only if Kirk says so.

If he doesn't yield the authority, there is no authority.

It's his ship, and therefore, THAT MAKES HIM THE LAW.

Nah, He's clearly pushing it to the last second, but doesn't seem to willing to go past that.

He's a ship's captain and answers to Starfleet and the Federation. He doesn't have carte blanche from either. Starfleet tells him where to go and what to do. He's not allowed to take the ship Vulcan when he has orders to go to Altair Six

KOMACK [on monitor]: Altair Six is no ordinary matter. That area is just putting itself together after a long interplanetary conflict. This inauguration will stabilise the entire Altair system. Our appearance there is a demonstration of friendship and strength which will cause ripples clear to the Klingon Empire.
KIRK: Sir, the delay would be, at most, a day. I can hardly believe that
KOMACK [on monitor]: You will proceed to Altair Six as ordered. You have your orders. Starfleet out.

 

[Spock's Barber]

Fox is lucky that Spock showed up when he did, otherwise he would have been turned into dust.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Fox is lucky that Spock showed up when he did, otherwise he would have been turned into dust.

Along with.... I want to say, Porter Waggoner?

 

[Spock's Barber]

Along with.... I want to say, Porter Waggoner?

With his Starfleet issue Armani suit and Gucci shoes.

 

[Poltargyst]

Those societies are just on a different spot on the timeline. None of them are doing anything particularly different on a fundamental level that the ancestors of France or China did thousands of years ago. Put the right environmental pressure on them and add a few thousand years and they would go through the same stages of agriculture, iron age, ect that other regions have experienced.

Ok, but I'm still sure what you're asking me.