Did Starfleet build warships?

[Praetor]

Wow, newtype alpha, that's more or less what I'd been noodling around with myself. Very well said!

Presumably there are always scientific, exploratory, and support missions to be undertaken, there may not always be wars to fight. There's enough overlap in the basic design requirements for the two (such as torpedo launchers for probes) that even a vessel designed principally for combat could fulfill other roles.

If Starfleet does have dedicated warships I suspect they're smaller vessels for patrol/escort duty, less powerful in a combat role than the larger starships but more efficient. Half the strength, one quarter the tonnage/cost and such.

But, and perhaps this is a bad comparison in general, consider the fleet maintained by the United States Navy. Its ships and fleet makeup are substantially bigger than is really necessary to perform the duties it is required to perform outside of war.

And for that reason, the U.S. Navy is ridiculously over-priced and laughably inefficient. Most of its hardware was designed to fight a war that will never happen against an enemy that no longer exists using weapons that are already obsolete using tactics that have never been tested in the theatre.

I don't see the Federation as possessing some kind of self-serving notoriously corrupt military industrial complex. Actually, I believe the move away from dedicated warships (and the controversy around the Defiant project, for that matter) is a reaction to precisely this kind of development.

Follow this fictional history: for fifty years, Starfleet built up more and more overtly military hardware to deal with the threat of the Klingon Empire. The Klingons, for their part, built up their military the same way. Then Praxis exploded and the Klingons realized they had spent so much money on their military that they couldn't deal with a simple natural disaster properly (coughHurricaneKatrinacough) and they needed to reorganize. This meant the end of hostilities with the Klingons, and it suddenly left Starfleet holding a bill for a huge and expensive battle fleet that it would never have a chance to use.

In TUC, we have assholes like Admiral Cartwright and such who understand that the organization they created is about to be gutted because its principal mission--fighting the Klingons--has ceased to exist. Even Valeris describes her actions as "saving Starfleet," as if the Klingon threat is Starfleet's only reason to exist! (the Federation seemed to be on surprisingly good terms with the Romulans at the time...).

We don't know what happened after TUC, but in TNG we get a hint that there was some trouble with the Romulans, more tension with the Klingons and later some skirmishes with the Cardassians... none of which approached the scale and intensity of the 23rd century cold war. We can infer from this that within the Klingon Empire some type of cultural revolution occurred, probably a revolt by Khaless fundamentalists seeking to return the Empire to the "true war of the warrior" or some crap like that. This fundamentally changed the political landscape of the High Council, paving the way for a more feudal type of government where the high council retained no real power except the ability to organize the many houses and the ships they controlled to make war against their enemies. From this point on, then, Klingons only fight for personal reasons, with (until Gowron) none of the grand political power plays for the "Glory of the Empire."

With this power dynamic--and since Cartwright's people fail to start the war that had taken over their reason for being--Starfleet had to reinvent itself in order to remain relevant. First, the lack of a mutual enemy lead to the Romulans dusting off their old rivalries, and since the Romulans rarely come out in force, a greater emphasis was put on counterintelligence and electronic warfare (with the main computer completely taking over ship's communications on most vessels). Second, Starfleet either absorbed or subcontrated with the United Earth Space Probe Agency and other scientific organizations from other planets (the Vulcan Science Ministry, for example, and a few others) to become the go-to boys for any and all scientific/industrial/diplomatic operations in Federation space, and they got so good at it that pretty soon they were the only show in town.

After a few decades of this, Starfleet has so thoroughly revamped itself (even gotten snazzy new uniforms that look more astronauty than navy) that it is no longer unusual for starships to have the family members of their crews on board; it has gone from a military organization to a scientific merchant marine--a "scientist marine" if you will--whose combat role is on an "as needed" basis.

The weirdness of the Federation economy, and the optimism of the premise of Trek, would seem to preclude the idea of Eisenhower's military-industrial complex existing in the 23rd century, but as you say, the hardline right-wing in Cartwright and company is clearly still there. All that talk of 'dismantling Starfleet' in TUC combined with the pre-established tensions with the Klingons and the re-emerged Romulans was clearly meant to be a parallel to the U.S.-Soviet Cold War, so why not also assume that the Federation had also developed a battle fleet that was just waiting for war to break out? I particularly like your theorizing with the Klingons and Romulans in the post-TUC era.

I'm not sure that I agree that the 24th century 'reinvention' of Starfleet need to be quite so wholesale, as clearly exploratory missions were a part of the ENT and TOS Starfleet's directives, but I do agree that there was a reinvention of sorts, in some ways more of a back-to-basics reversion to the 22nd century ideals, now with the applied technology of the 24th.

Is it obvious now that I'm sold on the 23rd and 22nd century Starfleets having built dedicated warships?

While I'll avoid specific classes (since there are so many good designs from over the yeras to pick through), I envision the following. Since the founding of the Federation, Starfleet had been interally conflicted by those who maintained that it remain an organization of peace as prior to the Romulan War, and those who maintained that the War proved its primary obligation was militaristic. As the decades passed, this contention grew. By 2260, in addition to their various multi-role cruisers, Starfleet had refit the fleet across the board to match Constitution specifications and commissioned matching new dreadnoughts (perhaps six to twelve) and battleships (I'd say no more than six) in anticipation of war with the Klingons, in addtion to various through deck cruisers and destroyers, expanding Starfleet significantly. The re-emergence of the Romulans and alliance with the Klingons furthered Federation conviction that war was inevitable. Over the subsequent decades, enormous resources were allocated and spent to maintain, update, and refit these forces, as well as commissioning new ship classes and expanding existing ones.

As a result of the 2290s detente and the subsequent treaties with the Klingons, Starfleet ended up having to decommission most of the dedicated war fleet it had built up for decades, and began changes to focus more on scientific programs. It seemed that the science-oriented side had won, but a compromise was reach in developing the Explorer type starship, a ship so large and so powerful that while not being a dedicated warship, and thus having something to do in peace time and not violating treaty, it would in the event of a war become the battleships that Starfleet had just been forced to decommission. Beginning with the Ambassador and subsequently the Galaxy class, these ships became the 'dual purpose' ships that Starfleet realized it should have been building all along. Only when the Borg threat emerged would Starfleet feel the need to commission a series of war-oriented ships beginning with the Defiant.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

All agreement here, Preator, except that I still believe the MACOs were the primary military organization of the 22nd century with Earth Starfleet being the equivalent to, say, NASA or the Soviet Space Program. Exploration is still its primary mission, but it retains a military role as a research body at least and secondary combat at most.

The 23rd century is harder to place because they had expanded both their military and scientific role, but the hostilities with the Klingons cannot be understated. The only reason I extrapolate this into the 24th century wholesale "reinventing" is because of similarities between, say, the Yesterday's Enterprise Galaxy class and its 23rd century counterparts. Though they still got new uniforms, they retained some of the styling of the 23rd century ones, not to mention preserving the same high energy, manpower-intensive crew configuration seen in the TMP and TOS days. In other words, the Enterprise-D in open warfare with the Klingons bears a stronger resemblance to the Enterprise-A in cold warfare with the Klingons. E-D after thirty years of relative peace is practically a pleasure boat by comparison.

 

[Praetor]

All agreement here, Preator, except that I still believe the MACOs were the primary military organization of the 22nd century with Earth Starfleet being the equivalent to, say, NASA or the Soviet Space Program. Exploration is still its primary mission, but it retains a military role as a research body at least and secondary combat at most.

We could almost star a whole other thread about whether there was other military besides Starfleet. I guess I personally have been of a mindset that the 'old' military was more or less defunct after United Earth happened, and that one of the 'new' military's primary concerns was space exploration and defense, so Starfleet is a military but not as we know militaries today. I see Starfleet being a combined Navy/Air Force creation, and the MACOs being a combined Marines/Army type force, and perhaps surviving into the Federation as being the 'ground troops' later mentioned in DS9. I've never really been able to envision the MACOs having ships of their own.

The 23rd century is harder to place because they had expanded both their military and scientific role, but the hostilities with the Klingons cannot be understated. The only reason I extrapolate this into the 24th century wholesale "reinventing" is because of similarities between, say, the Yesterday's Enterprise Galaxy class and its 23rd century counterparts. Though they still got new uniforms, they retained some of the styling of the 23rd century ones, not to mention preserving the same high energy, manpower-intensive crew configuration seen in the TMP and TOS days. In other words, the Enterprise-D in open warfare with the Klingons bears a stronger resemblance to the Enterprise-A in cold warfare with the Klingons. E-D after thirty years of relative peace is practically a pleasure boat by comparison.

'Yesterday's Enterprise' is a very good source for comparison, since it is an altered timeline and not a mirror universe. I agree that the Klingons cannot be understated but my line of thinking is again slightly different. I think primarily my difference in thinking is that the changes we see are more a reflection of rather subconscious changes in mindset and direction of Starfleet as influenced by certain key political events, rather than a direct, systematic reaction and subsequent change in operations because of said events. In other words, Starfleet doesn't refocus to exploration because it must, it does so because the hawks have been essentially disproven and they now can and as such their attitudes and beliefs are modified accordingly, and those cosmetic changes occur.

Since it seems the initial talks and 'dismantling the Starfleet' apparently happened thirty years before the events regarding the Enterprise-C, seems to me that the events of TUC led to a mutual disarmament, but no real establishment of 'friendliness.' I envision this as much like the treaty situation between the first and second World Wars, with particular regard to the numbers and types of ships you could and could not have, and what their armaments could be. Battleships and dreadnoughts would be almost (or perhaps totally) decommissioned while heavy cruisers such as the Constitution and Excelsior would be allowed because their primary listed purpose was exploration. (I speculate that this 'allowance' is the reason we later see so many Excelsiors and Mirandas- they are still quite capable of military action despite falling through treaty loopholes and would surely have the political support of both the science-minded and the war-minded.) I think that this interim consisted of years of suspicion and mutual distrust, even if it was a detente.

Even with the stipulated disarmament, I still envision the birth of the Explorer as a surrogate/replacement battleship (designed to be an overall better use of resources that also exploits the treaty loophole and thus appeases Starfleet's hawks) occurring, beginning with the Ambassador in 2315. Based on reference to the Ambassador as a heavy cruiser, I suspect that while this was 'officially' true, it was actually in every way the forerunner for the true Explorer, the Galaxy. I suspect that the phaser strips and multi-firing torpedo tubes that we see later were another attempt by the remaining hawks to circumvent treaty stipulations for the number of weapons a ship might carry. I think it is also this serendipitous preparedness that rendered the Cardassian threats of the mid-century relatively minimal. Think of all of this as the hawks basically sneaking their agenda into the exploration-minded folks' agenda of peace.

I think that in the 'proper' timeline it was the sacrifice of the Enterprise-C that finally showed the Klingons a demonstrable good faith from the Federation and allowed them to develop a friendship that prevented them from descending to war. In the altered timeline, without this, the mutual suspicion would continue until the Klingons had gotten over their economic problems enough to again start flexing their muscles. In the altered timeline, Starfleet would already be developing the Explorer as I suggest but the collapse of relations with the Klingons would push them to drive the Galaxy back to its roots and make the alternate class a true battleship.

Carrying this thinking forward a bit, even with the 'friendship' it seems that the Klingons were quite prepared to throw this away for what they perceived as a threat, i.e. the Cardassians and the Dominion, yet were just as quick if not faster to renew the alliance when it tactically suited them. I think this is a prime example of how different Federation and Klingon philosophies really are (not unlike NATO and the Soviets) and how this unpredictable relationship ALONE would have mandated Starfleet be prepared for a moment's war, again like our real world Cold War.

 

[James Wright]

If Starfleet did build dedicated warships, whar would be their mission in piecetime? They wouldn't have the science facalities to be assigned deep space explorarion duties!
Their pressance on the Romulan and Cardasian borders could be percieved as a threat, so they would have to stay well inside Federation space.

James

 

[Praetor]

When the U.S. had battleships, most of them sat in dock most of the time.

 

[EmperorTiberius]

I like these theories above. The battleships of the 24th c. are equipped for scientific purposes and classed as explorers.

 

[JoeZhang]

There is always the issue of crew specialism - we know that both the romuleans and the Klingons had warriors and it seems rather hokey to me that in a combat situation that the federation was expected social scientists to go toe to tow with those specialist units of their enemies.

Now obviously, the constraits of the TV shows meant we did see that happening but surely Star Fleet had officers who specialism was fighting and space combat (and no I don't consider ship security to be that).

This then loops back to the ships, such a specialism would neccesitate ships to make the most of their training...

 

[BillJ]

There is always the issue of crew specialism - we know that both the romuleans and the Klingons had warriors and it seems rather hokey to me that in a combat situation that the federation was expected social scientists to go toe to tow with those specialist units of their enemies.

Now obviously, the constraits of the TV shows meant we did see that happening but surely Star Fleet had officers who specialism was fighting and space combat (and no I don't consider ship security to be that).

This then loops back to the ships, such a specialism would neccesitate ships to make the most of their training...

I hate when people use logic when discussing Star Trek.

 

[James Wright]

I'm thinking that Starfleet personnel are not only trained as scientists but are trained in combat too!

James

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Not as extensively as their Romulan and Klingon counterparts, though. The fact that Starfleet has a lot of high technology makes their job easier, but their combat specialists are probably WELL above par for what Starfleet considers "battle ready." Probably this is why they go through yellowshirts as quickly as they do

 

[James Wright]

Seems to me TOS went through a lot of red shirts too!

James

 

[greenmystik]

Yes

 

[BenRoethig]

Yes. With the exception the Olympic class medical ship and possibly the Oberth, every Starfleet vessel we've seen is legally a warship. They are combatant vessels belonging to an armed service. Titles like Explorer are more political correctness than anything.

 

[Praetor]

Well, technically I meant dedicated warships, as opposed to dedicated science ships like the Oberth and medical ships like the Olympic.

I, and I think everyone that's posted, do agree that the minus certain acceptions, the average Starfleet ship is as capable of military applications as it is scientific use. If you see my post upthread, I also agree primarily with 'Explorer' being in some ways a euphemism.

 

[James Wright]

Starfleet ships are the jack of all trades kind of ships,carrying cargo to distant places, on occassion transporting people hither and yonder, getting out and about, seeing what there is to see and when they need to they fight!

James

 

[Mirror_Barclay]

Definitely yes. 1 word - Defiant. Although they played at words with it and called it an "escort." This was mentioned in DS9 episode "The Search."

I know the 'euphemism' thing has been around a long time, and I think it originated on the show. However, it really bugs me.

'Escort' is no more a euphemism for 'warship' than 'orange' is a euphemism for 'fruit.' It's a more specific designation within the overall category. Moreover, it describes a mission that the Defiant carries out on several occasions, albeit not it's most useful or common role (or else escort missions are usually too boring to be covered on the show).

 

[alicelouise]

Personally, I've always thought that Starfleet built explorers with teeth - i.e, their primary mission was to explore, but they were also heavily armed enough to be a match for comparably-sized vessels (with the exception of dedicated science vessels like the Oberth-class). I don't think Starfleet would officially classify any of their ships as warships - even the Defiant is officially classed as an "escort" because, as Kira says in 'The Search' - Starfleet doesn't believe in warships. It's possible the Dominion war, and the recomissioning of the Defiant class into production has changed things, however I can see Starfleet wanting to get back to their exploratory roots following the Dominion war - such as in the Titan novels etc

Such a PC term;escort! We'll just say that the Defiant was an Escort ship that was all MUSCLE. On the other hand the peaceful exploratory ships had only the NECESSARY muscle.

 

[papi_pol]

According to Trek TOS novel "Dreadnought" under the "Fortunes of War" saga, Starfleet created the MK-X Star Empire - A constitution class dreadnought with 3 warp nacelles (1 above the saucer section) with the main purpose of outgunning the Klingon Fleet.

Read here

 

[Myasishchev]

Definitely yes. 1 word - Defiant. Although they played at words with it and called it an "escort." This was mentioned in DS9 episode "The Search."

I know the 'euphemism' thing has been around a long time, and I think it originated on the show. However, it really bugs me.

'Escort' is no more a euphemism for 'warship' than 'orange' is a euphemism for 'fruit.' It's a more specific designation within the overall category. Moreover, it describes a mission that the Defiant carries out on several occasions, albeit not it's most useful or common role (or else escort missions are usually too boring to be covered on the show).

Concur in that.

I think they just chose "escort" over "destroyer," because of the extremely nasty sound "destroyer" must have in alien languages. "This is the U.S.S. Annihilatrix, Captain Killface commanding--she's a research vessel."

I always thought the best in-universe description of the Defiant would have been a Federation bird-of-prey. Her two purposes--surprise attacks from cloak when operating independently and her queen-of-the-swarmers role in fleet actions--are practically identical to those of the BoP.

I would have liked to have seen whole squadrons of Defiants operating as screens for the capships, instead of her leading a charge of 100-year old Mirandas... but we can't water down the cachet of the hero ship, can we? The same reason we never saw a Sovereign in DS9.

 

[Praetor]

I think they just chose "escort" over "destroyer," because of the extremely nasty sound "destroyer" must have in alien languages. "This is the U.S.S. Annihilatrix, Captain Killface commanding--she's a research vessel."

Myasishchev, for the win.

I always thought the best in-universe description of the Defiant would have been a Federation bird-of-prey. Her two purposes--surprise attacks from cloak when operating independently and her queen-of-the-swarmers role in fleet actions--are practically identical to those of the BoP.

I would have liked to have seen whole squadrons of Defiants operating as screens for the capships, instead of her leading a charge of 100-year old Mirandas... but we can't water down the cachet of the hero ship, can we? The same reason we never saw a Sovereign in DS9.

Agreed wholeheartedly. Defiant leading charges was somewhat silly, but I guess we can squint and pretend since she's a bigger ship crammed in a smaller package and she was commanded by the Sisko she's a special case, as other Defiants did not seem to do the same. Perhaps other Defiants were not even as powerful as the prototype, to help with her little power overload problem? In particular, I think of 'Message in a Bottle' with the heavy cruiser Akira apparently being escorted into the battle with the Romulans by two Defiants. Now that made sense.

The lack of any other battleships in the Dominion War is also why I favor the notion that 23rd century battleships and dreadnoughts were decommissioned and scrapped as part of the Klingon peace talks stemming from the events of TUC, and having Excelsiors and Galaxys fill the double-niche of explorer and battleship.