Did Star Wars really start as episode 4?

[fireproof78]

You can buy a $25,000 working R2-D2 from either of the two immersive Star Wars theme parks. It doesn’t seem like a huge ask to think Star Wars might have the commercial viability of a cult film like Blade Runner.

And did they sell?

Again, I hate beating the cynic drum but I will in this case. I worked in retail and too often would hear people go, "Oh, if you only had this I would buy it." And I would advocate for it and it would sit. And sit.

Thinking it might sell one or two? Ok, maybe. Selling enough to justify LFL investing money in to it for printing, manufacturing and distributing? Skeptical if not downright cynical.

I'd love to be proven wrong. But, well, currently the Vintage Collection Cantina Haslab is struggling to fund fully.

 

[Set Harth]

You can buy a $25,000 working R2-D2 from either of the two immersive Star Wars theme parks

That thing better be able to fix starfighters and hack into Death Stars or I want my money back!

 

[Gepard]

IMO, the most likely reason Disney isn't releasing a restoration of the unaltered OT is because Lucas doesnt want them to. He views the SE as the definitive version and, if I were him, I would be smart enough to put it in the contract when I sold Lucasfilm that Disney can never, ever, ever release any other version without my consent.

 

[JD]

Blade Runner has 5 differing versions of the film I think (maybe more?) - yet that has a such a release on blu ray (that sold very well and seemingly cherished by its fans), so it is not that such a release would be unprecedented or into unknown waters etc.

But aren't the Blade Runner edits more drastically different than the Star Wars releases since the Special Editions?

You can buy a $25,000 working R2-D2 from either of the two immersive Star Wars theme parks. It doesn’t seem like a huge ask to think Star Wars might have the commercial viability of a cult film like Blade Runner.

Just because they made it, doesn't mean it was actually popular.
And the LARPing weekend hotel that Disney just tried to do bombed so bad it barely lasted a year, if even that long. So obviously everything Star Wars isn't always a guarenteed success.

 

[oojason]

But aren't the Blade Runner edits more drastically different than the Star Wars releases since the Special Editions?

I don't know enough about the 5 main (or more) differences in the Blade Runner cuts to really comment on that - I only really recall the two main differences; the international theatrical cut (with Harrison's narration), and the The Final Cut (no narration) - although there are other differences between those particular two cuts, and with the other versions too.

There's more info on that, here: https://bladerunner.fandom.com/wiki/Versions_of_Blade_Runner (and probably other quality sources elsewhere online too)

I would say the differences between the various cuts of Original Trilogy range from noticeable to striking - not only in the alterations themselves, but the execution. and also the image quality, as well differences to the re-editing of certain scenes themselves.



Just a quick word, and also repeating myself again (sorry), on the question of demand for such a release, or the apparent 'certainty' of the demand , that 'has blown some people's minds' on here ...

I agree Even Lucasfilm themselves acknowledged such demand in the past...

^ “the biggest question we’ve ever gotten from Star Wars fans is, ‘When are you going to release the originals?’”

the “overwhelming demand” for the unaltered theatrical version.

the "long awaited release of original theatrical incarnations of the classic Star Wars trilogy.”

“over the years a truly countless number of fans have told us they would love to see and own the original version that they remember experiencing in the theatres.”

That demand, albeit from 2006, is still there. Few would likely not want such a release. Possibly even more fans want such a release now... as they would like to see and experience the original award-winning, pioneering and ground-breaking cuts from 'back in the day', to see them as their parents or grandparents saw them (I'm going to sit in sit back down in my rocking chair in just a sec ). Also Movie completionists, film buffs in general, fans of physical media, would all like to have the option to own and experience such a release. Not forgetting those that saw the 1997SE on the big screen and grew up with that particular cut - and has its own importance in Star Wars history - a version that has never had an official HD release.

The recent 40th anniversary re-releases of the Original Trilogy films in theatres (albeit the 2011/2019SE being the actual cuts shown) have been a success, along with the 25th anniversary of TPM too.

Plus, recent physical media releases of Star Wars content has sold very well (despite some eye watering prices), including the 27-disc Skywalker Saga 4K/UHD/blu-ray box set (already on it's 3rd pressing, IIRC?) and such content already being available on Disney+.

and...

Indeed. Yet the only time there was a release of the OOT on DVD ... despite Lucasfilm stating at the time of release they'd only be available for 4 months in 2006, and were a 'Limited Edition', they did sell well, so much that they were still being pressed and available to buy in store shelves until shortly before the blu ray release in 2011.

It appears they also sold well in the years since on the secondary markets - especially in comparison to the 2004 SE DVDs and 2011 SE blu ray prices - despite the known poor image quality issues of the 2006 release.

So whether a physical media release, or Disney+ subscription, or both... it appears fans would pay for such a release... (to say nothing of the impressive numbers of downloads and interest in the fan preservations such as Harmy's Despecialized and the 4K77/80/83 releases over the years). An official release - easy to get and watch (in comparison to an average Joe being aware of the fan preservations and then downloading a torrent / usenet / living a pirate's life etc ) - in 4K/UHD to buy/subscribe to once more? Yeah, a significant percentage of fans and other interested parties would likely be up for that.

and...

as Lucasfilm's Pablo Hidalgo stated here in 2017, the only reason why there hasn't been such a release of the Original Trilogy on home video in recent years is because of... George Lucas. That "they respect his wishes". Which is a bit of a blow in seemingly not respecting Kershner's or Marquand's work, or the other creatives and craftspeople that worked on the original films and helped made them what they are, to say nothing of the fans. Yet, maybe for a '50th anniversary' release, a change of heart from George, or a short time after George passes... who knows?


In addition to the above... disc-rot and other play-back issues for the 2006 'Limited Edition' OOT DVD release have come to the fore of late, with a number of people recently noticing that their discs are no longer playable, or sadly even readable, and so are unable to even make backups of them (me included). Another, somewhat smaller reason for why those otherwise content with the older VHS/2006 DVDs may wish to opt for a new modern high quality digital format release for the theatrical cuts, or all the differing cuts... whether on physical media, or on Disney+, or both.

(On the above, it may be an idea for anyone to check their treasured or favourite DVDs to see if they still work okay, and that it may be an idea to make a backup or two just in case. www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufALjleweoA, & www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jAnKmjPvGM & www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehrDoklrl8s)

 

[YellowSubmarine]

The big problem with the theatrical cuts is that, while I hate some of the changes, such as this one, which is egregious:

...some of them are completely essential. Ian McDiarmid in The Empire Strikes Back, for example. The original emperor scene looks atrocious now, although I kind of appreciate the creepy factor like it's from an alternative universe.

So everyone will start picking and choosing. And for better or for worse, the SE+ versions are the reference to start from, rather than the theatrical ones.

As I've been growing obsessed with the idea that chronological order is the correct order to watch (mostly because if unspoiled, Revenge of the Sith is harder hitting than any retroactive reveal in the OT), and some changes are particularly important. You might gloss over the theatrical emperor if you watch in release order, but it's jarring if you're already familiar with the emperor from three movies. Hearing Temuera Morrison's voice is nice. The improved looks, especially of the Cloud City, feel better in that context. And the Jabba scene or seeing the Falcon isn't a problem if you've already seen Solo.

Some of those would work in reverse. I would keep “Star Wars” (without Episode IV) during the crawl, because it would give the viewer the impression that they are watching THE Star Wars, an impression that would be removed by not watching it first. Like, if I were Lucas/Disney, I'd put “Episode IV: A New Hope” in the Disney+ menu and/or on the BluRay box, and still have the title just say “Star Wars” with the otherwise edited crawl (capitalized Rebel and all). Also for some reason that I can't explain, the original Kenobi's hut seems more in line with what I'd expect after the Obi-Wan Kenobi series. Perhaps the fact that the SE put it on a hill with such view just feels off, and I also don't like the dome.

Some of the CGI, even the one that is nice to have, stands out too much. The Tatooine scenes, especially the perfect buildings, are like a video game. I'd definitely want it re-rendered with higher detail, with more defects on the buildings matching the footage that it replaced and then noised to appear old.

 

[Tuskin38]

IMO, the most likely reason Disney isn't releasing a restoration of the unaltered OT is because Lucas doesnt want them to.

That is exactly the reason. They've even said so.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

I remember this movie before the change with the crawl.

The changes do make me think that Lucas had in mind more movies as far back as the 80s.

 

[fireproof78]

I remember this movie before the change with the crawl.

The changes do make me think that Lucas had in mind more movies as far back as the 80s.

He always did but was uncertain of the likelihood of success. The novel Splinter of a Minds Eye was written because there wasn't expectations of enough money to make a sequel.

 

[Sketcher]

Being a child of the 90s, it used to confuse me to no end when adults would refer to A New Hope as simply Star Wars. I was like, they're all titled Star Wars! Wasn't until probably until the 2000s I learned the original release didn't have the A New Hope subtitle.

 

[fireproof78]

Being a child of the 90s, it used to confuse me to no end when adults would refer to A New Hope as simply Star Wars. I was like, they're all titled Star Wars! Wasn't until probably until the 2000s I learned the original release didn't have the A New Hope subtitle.

My parents had the original vinyl release of the narrated story and storybooks so I saw both titles as I became more aware of Star Wars in the early 90s. Revenge of the Jedi confused me more.

 

[Shawnster]

Someday it could be possible to provide a customizable version where the viewer can select which scenes they want from a pull down before pressing play.

Let's see, I want Star Wars, no episode 4, only Han shoots, include the Jabba scene, no Yavin flyby

 

[Mudd]

So this came across my Facebook social media feed as a reel

https://www.facebook.com/share/r/tFytPHfk2h5mjkeH/?mibextid=oFDknk

Where Mark Hamill explains that George Lucas had set it up to mimic the Flash Gordon reels.

I was 4 when A New Hope first came out, and actually missed it the first time (I saw Empire first and then caught a re release of Star Wars later)

So did it really say Episode 4 on the original crawl? (Before all the revisions).

No.

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[Reverend]

No.

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Yes AND no. It was in and out a few times during post-production. Ultimately I think it made Fox too nervous so he pulled it out for the initial release, but shoved it right back in the first chance he got for the re-release in the lead-up to tESB's premier.

Which brings me back to my point from a while back; looking for an "original" version is folly. It only exists in certain people's minds. It was always in a state of flux.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Yes AND no. It was in and out a few times during post-production. Ultimately I think it made Fox too nervous so he pulled it out for the initial release, but shoved it right back in the first chance he got for the re-release in the lead-up to tESB's premier.

Which brings me back to my point from a while back; looking for an "original" version is folly. It only exists in certain people's minds. It was always in a state of flux.

No, as mentioned upthread, the first time either "Episode IV" or "A New Hope" appeared in a release was post-TESB, in 1981, after everybody had seen that TESB was Episode V and after it was seen that The Empire Strikes Back was a subtitle.

 

[Mudd]

No, as mentioned upthread, the first time either "Episode IV" or "A New Hope" appeared in a release was post-TESB, in 1981, after everybody had seen that TESB was Episode V and after it was seen that The Empire Strikes Back was a subtitle.

Yep.

Lucas did a lot of mythologizing, same as GR, in the years following the success of SW. The whole thing was not nearly as carefully planned as he suggested, nor was Vader always Luke's father.

 

[Reverend]

Details! The point is that it was something he had wanted to include during production, but took out due to external pressure. Getting the sequels was the reason he felt free to put it back.
Honestly, this is a very strange hill for people to choose to die on. You only have to glace at the various working titles of the earlier drafts of the script to know that Lucas had it in his head that this was just one instalment of a larger story.
Are we seriously going to argue that the "pure" form of Star Wars was the one semi-rushed out the door, compromised by studio marketing notes, a mad-dash re-editing, and numerous rushed, numerous unsatisfactory VFX shots and some disappointing puppetry?

The only person that gets do decide what the definitive version of Star Wars is is George Lucas, and he's made his position on the matter quite clear. Like what you like, and dislike what you dislike, but for all the flapping and histrionics, it's all just rose tinted nostalgia from a shrinking sub-set of the fandom that happened to actually be alive during the initial run.

 

[oojason]

Yep.

Lucas did a lot of mythologizing, same as GR, in the years following the success of SW. The whole thing was not nearly as carefully planned as he suggested, nor was Vader always Luke's father.

Definitely this.

The Rinzler 'Making Of' books for the OT, and 'The Secret History of Star Wars' by Michael Kaminski, demonstrate this very well... especially for anyone who wasn't around and lived through George's mythologizing, some of his more disingenuous and debunked claims, and his re-writing of history.

Sure, Lucas had ideas and notes for a continuation of stories (and background) of the film (for whether the film was a financial success or not)... but even many of the most ardent Lucas-fans have come to acknowledge Lucas certainly didn't have it 'all planned out from the start™' or that 'Star Wars was always the tragedy of Darth Vader™'.

On a slight tangent... and from a certain point of view... it also somewhat takes away from Kershner and Marquand's visions, impact and contributions to the OT, as well as numerous others such as Brackett & Kasdan, the likes of Kurtz & Kazanjian, Katz & Huyck, those amazing visual & concept artists, the cinematographers, the talented and resourceful editors, and the myriad of pioneering creatives at ILM, and the gifted and innovative others who also worked on the films, including costume, set, and prop designers etc. Williams and Burtt. Not forgetting the actors themselves. That 'lightning in a bottle', those magic ingredients that culminated in creating something we all fell in love with, so iconic and cherished it became a mainstay of popular culture, and underpins all of the GFFA.

Details!

No. Facts. CorporalCaptain merely fact-checked and your previous incorrect statement above.
Nobody 'is dying on hills' there as you claim - just simply presenting the facts.

The only person that gets do decide what the definitive version of Star Wars is is George Lucas, and he's made his position on the matter quite clear.

Again, no. Not since 2012 when he sold up to Disney has George Lucas had that power. Lucasfilm/Disney even de-canoned the EU in 2014... so what is the definitive version of Star Wars has been their decision to make since since 2012. Sure, much deference and respect is given to George - but Star Wars hasn't been George's for some time now.

Plus, nobody is saying that releasing the previous cuts of the OT (and PT) invalidates or detracts from the 2019 Special Edition 'Maclunkey' cuts now being the 'definitive' or official / canon cuts etc.

As already posted in the thread, the prior releases (theatrical cuts, 1997 SE, 2004 SE, and 2011 SE) could easily be be made available in the 'Vintage Collection' section of Disney+ (along with other older content from the GFFA; such as 2003 Clone Wars, the 2 Ewok films, the Ewoks & Droids animated series etc. Or have a physical media release under the 'Essential Legends' banner - as much of the EU books and comics have been repackaged and re-released of late... and it wouldn't take anything away from the 2019 SE cuts now being 'George's vision' (we're now on the 5th major version release of George's 'visions').

but for all the flapping and histrionics, it's all just rose tinted nostalgia from a shrinking sub-set of the fandom that happened to actually be alive during the initial run.

Options and choices. As also posted previously in the thread... many fans would like to have the option to view and experience the previously released cuts of Star Wars that was made previously available to them - in good quality and on a modern digital format - whether that be the original theatrical cuts, the 1997 SE, 2004 SE , and 2011 SE - or even the differing theatrical PT cuts).

Many fans seeking to acquire the fan preservations of theatrical cuts (and even the 1997 SE cuts) are in their teens, their 20s, 30s and 40s - they weren't around at the time of the theatrical release. Yet they still wish to view and experience those early iconic versions that their parents or grandparents grew up with, and stood for some 20 years before the Special Edition releases. Riffing on the old marketing: 'Star Wars is forever - for all generations'.

Quite why some people are vehemently opposed to other fans having that choice and option to watch those previously released versions - including the award-winning, pioneering, much-loved, cultural phenomenon theatrical cuts that is the theatrical OT... which underpins all of the GFFA... is lost on me. It seems gatekeeping and unnecessarily divisive - and we could with much less of that in Star Wars fandom.

Someday it could be possible to provide a customizable version where the viewer can select which scenes they want from a pull down before pressing play.

Let's see, I want Star Wars, no episode 4, only Han shoots, include the Jabba scene, no Yavin flyby

Yeah, that'd be a cool option to have given George's 5 main differing and altered visions that he has released to the public over the years (OOT, '97SE, '04SE, '11SE, & '19SE). For the Prequels too.

Around 20 years ago some fans preservationists tried a customizable version of the OT with 'seamless branching' on DVD (unfortunately it didn't really work; mainly due to the technical limitations, IIRC), though would be interesting to see what could be achieved now - via streaming/UHD etc.

Fan Edits may also be worth a look at - there are many differing cuts of the films available - some with minor alternative takes along the lines of what you suggest. With others edits taking a wholly different style and approach, such as 'Pulp Empire', the 'silent' versions, music only cuts (no dialogue), or even a more complete Special Edition version of the OT in Adywan's Revisited cuts.

That many Fan Preservations of the Original Trilogy also include the various 70mm, 35mm, and mono audio differences (along with a copious amount language options - and also subtitles) is a welcome experience.

Choices and options in Star Wars, eh? Hard to understand why some are so opposed to people having those.

 

[fireproof78]

The only person that gets do decide what the definitive version of Star Wars is is George Lucas, and he's made his position on the matter quite clear. Like what you like, and dislike what you dislike, but for all the flapping and histrionics, it's all just rose tinted nostalgia from a shrinking sub-set of the fandom that happened to actually be alive during the initial run.

Exactly. Many fans can demand things be preserved but that puts no obligation on Lucas, or Lucasfilm, who are able to act in the best interest of their product and selling it based upon their vision.

Sorry, fans, but you're owed nothing, regardless of likes or dislikes.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Honestly, this is a very strange hill for people to choose to die on. [...] Are we seriously going to argue that the "pure" form of Star Wars was the one semi-rushed out the door, compromised by studio marketing notes, a mad-dash re-editing, and numerous rushed, numerous unsatisfactory VFX shots and some disappointing puppetry?

Who said that? All I did was fact-check your post.