Did Riker intentionally wreck the Enterprise?

[Turd Ferguson]

So I get really irritated by the perpetuation of this tired "joke" that because Troi's a woman, she's a bad driver and thus "crashed" the ship, a "joke" which makes no sense when you consider the context of the scene and events depicted.

The point I was making (which IS in jest), wasn't a joke about women drivers. It was the "thought" process that went through Commander William "Hotshit Ace Pilot" Riker's brain when he assessed the Enterprise was screwed and that the best candidate to get the ship the hell out of there was the psychologist. I would be making this same argument if Riker had given the helm to one Counselor Frasier Crane. It has nothing to do with male or female drivers. You have two highly skilled pilots aboard (aforementioned Riker and Commander La Forge, who, admittedly, was busy not making the engines blow up sooner), and he gives the helm to a psychologist who (as far as I can remember) we have never seen on helm duty.

Two movies later, we see HAP Riker piloting and commanding, what was so different here? That the D didn't have a manual steering column? Is he THAT fucking lazy that he can't push buttons?

 

[Ithekro]

Getting away in Generations didn't require hot shot piloting. Crashing did, but Troi was already at the helm and did fine is keeping them all from dying in fire (until their captain messed up the first time around.) In this instance, it didn't seem like they were all going to die depending on who was flying, as the issue was "why are these Klingons blasting through our shields? Are our shields working? Can we get them off balance so we can just blow them up with one shot, as our weapons are having issues with their shields while ours are useless."

In Insurrection, what Riker has in mind is very specific and if it fails they all die. IF they are going to die under his command, he wants to be the one responsible.

 

[SPCTRE]

 

[Paul Weaver]

If only Riker had rerouted through Cleveland.

 

[Karzak]

So I get really irritated by the perpetuation of this tired "joke" that because Troi's a woman, she's a bad driver and thus "crashed" the ship, a "joke" which makes no sense when you consider the context of the scene and events depicted.

The point I was making (which IS in jest), wasn't a joke about women drivers. It was the "thought" process that went through Commander William "Hotshit Ace Pilot" Riker's brain when he assessed the Enterprise was screwed and that the best candidate to get the ship the hell out of there was the psychologist.

Again.

Troi isn't "just" a psychologist anymore than Worf is "just" a security officer or Geordi is "just" an engineer.

Troi is a Starfleet officer. Troi is a commander. Troi is just as capable of piloting as anyone else. Hence Riker ordering her to take the helm.

I would be making this same argument if Riker had given the helm to one Counselor Frasier Crane. It has nothing to do with male or female drivers. You have two highly skilled pilots aboard (aforementioned Riker and Commander La Forge, who, admittedly, was busy not making the engines blow up sooner), and he gives the helm to a psychologist who (as far as I can remember) we have never seen on helm duty.

Good lord. Seriously? Did you just ignore the rest of my last post?

 

[Turd Ferguson]

So I get really irritated by the perpetuation of this tired "joke" that because Troi's a woman, she's a bad driver and thus "crashed" the ship, a "joke" which makes no sense when you consider the context of the scene and events depicted.

The point I was making (which IS in jest), wasn't a joke about women drivers. It was the "thought" process that went through Commander William "Hotshit Ace Pilot" Riker's brain when he assessed the Enterprise was screwed and that the best candidate to get the ship the hell out of there was the psychologist.

Again.

Troi isn't "just" a psychologist anymore than Worf is "just" a security officer or Geordi is "just" an engineer.

Troi is a Starfleet officer. Troi is a commander. Troi is just as capable of piloting as anyone else. Hence Riker ordering her to take the helm.

I would be making this same argument if Riker had given the helm to one Counselor Frasier Crane. It has nothing to do with male or female drivers. You have two highly skilled pilots aboard (aforementioned Riker and Commander La Forge, who, admittedly, was busy not making the engines blow up sooner), and he gives the helm to a psychologist who (as far as I can remember) we have never seen on helm duty.

Good lord. Seriously? Did you just ignore the rest of my last post?

So you're trying to tell me that it was a good decision for Riker, as the commanding officer in the middle of a battle with a clearly hostile ship, to give the helm to somebody who just got certified for command (most likely with all the time on the helm done on simulators) than one of the experienced helmspeople on the ship? The people who HAVE logged hundreds of hours on helm duty and HAVE logged time engaged in battle? Do you see what I'm getting at? ACTUAL TIME ON THE HELM vs. TIME ON A SIMULATOR. Big difference.

 

[Ithekro]

No difference and not an issue.

Who was at the helm made no difference during the battle, just they needed someone there and Troi was the closest officer.


The only time any skill was needed over that planet was in keeping the ship from breaking up in the crash that happened following the destruction of the stardrive section. And Troi landed the Enterprise in a textbook fashion with no casualties. A+ skill.

 

[Lance]

I sometimes think that the people who bring the snark against Deanna in Generations forget that she isn't some civilian staff member seconded to the Enterprise, but a fully trained up Starfleet officer. She went to the Academy just like everyone else.

''Riker got the Enterprise pwned'', and ''Deanna crashed the ship'', are two of the laziest criticisms I ever hear about Generations. But the problem with the internet is that it's like an echo chamber: once one person makes the claim, a whole bunch of other guys jump on the bandwagon without even analysing the context of the scenes in question. Which is that Riker acts quickly to disable the Bird-of-Prey (the warp core breach as it was presented to us on screen was just a random thing that resulted from the battle, but it's not Riker's fault); and Deanna does an excellent job of landing the saucer as safely as she can on the planet given she's doing it on manual control and doesn't even have time to deploy landing gear and such. Even if Riker *did* take the Helm, I don't think he couldv'e done a better job than she did.

EDIT:

No difference and not an issue.

Who was at the helm made no difference during the battle, just they needed someone there and Troi was the closest officer.


The only time any skill was needed over that planet was in keeping the ship from breaking up in the crash that happened following the destruction of the stardrive section. And Troi landed the Enterprise in a textbook fashion with no casualties. A+ skill.

Exactly! :applause:

 

[Cyke101]

[which IS in jest

Wait, we were joking about Riker?

(uh oh)

 

[Nebusj]

So you're trying to tell me that it was a good decision for Riker, as the commanding officer in the middle of a battle with a clearly hostile ship, to give the helm to somebody who just got certified for command (most likely with all the time on the helm done on simulators) than one of the experienced helmspeople on the ship? The people who HAVE logged hundreds of hours on helm duty and HAVE logged time engaged in battle? Do you see what I'm getting at? ACTUAL TIME ON THE HELM vs. TIME ON A SIMULATOR. Big difference.

I think there might have been some situational advantage to having a qualified officer who's five feet away from the duty station take the helm in the midst of battle rather than having it sit around vacant while waiting for a qualified officer who's somewhere belowdecks to get ordered to the bridge and make her way to the bridge.

 

[Turd Ferguson]

I'm seriously not trying to make Troi out to be unqualified, I appreciate that she landed the Enterprise on Veridian III against the odds. I'm just baffled by the command decisions and incompetence displayed in the whole scene. Two movies later, Worf gets out of bed, dressed, and onto the bridge in less that one minute. Were the rest of the helmspeople assigned to the Enterprise on vacation that day? Did they have better things to do than pilot the ship?

 

[Ithekro]

Why? Troi is right there. Anyone else just went to their battlestations at Red Alert. Since there was someone assigned to the bridge, that means their next duty station would be the battle bridge. After that people are generally called to the bridge if they need someone to fill in. Since Troi wasn't busy and the captain was on the planet, she had free time to take over the helm, which she seems qualified to do given the outcome.

They let Wesley drive, it can't be that hard.

 

[Turd Ferguson]

Why? Troi is right there. Anyone else just went to their battlestations at Red Alert. Since there was someone assigned to the bridge, that means their next duty station would be the battle bridge. After that people are generally called to the bridge if they need someone to fill in. Since Troi wasn't busy and the captain was on the planet, she had free time to take over the helm, which she seems qualified to do given the outcome.

They let Wesley drive, it can't be that hard.

I highlighted the appropriate part. If you are a helmsman, then wouldn't your battlestation be as a back up in case the helm exploded, killing or seriously maiming the on duty person, which is a VERY common occurrence on Federation starships (especially ones named Enterprise )? If the helm can be used by anyone, then why not rotate all the Enterprise crew instead of having a designated helmsman?

Edit: Also, the battle bridge seems to remain unmanned until the order is given to man it.

Again, I'm not being deliberately obtuse, and I realize Berman, Moore and Braga had Deanna take the helm just to give her something to do in the action. But, put yourself on the bridge during the battle. Where are all the other helmsmen on the ship? "Not at their posts" is the correct answer.

 

[Marsden]

Now I finally know why all of those jet guys and astronauts are always nicknamed HAP!

His eyes opened!


No, seriously, Riker was just waiting for Picard to come throught the Nexus at a useful time to save him and the Enterprise. That was his mistake. He knew that every other time the Enterprise was destroyed over the last 7 years, and there were plenty, it was always an alternate universe/time warp situation and they'd be just fine and he was waiting for his CO to come through.

Too bad it didn't work out.

 

[Ithekro]

That or in happenstance, they were the ones wounded at the start of the battle. The Conn officer that was wounded actually came back to the bridge as the stardrive exploded (same actress, she just comes out of the turbolift in time to get knocked down to the floor by the impact). By then Troi had things under control.