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Did President Clark Have a Keeper? (Possible Spoilers)

Admiral_Young

Fleet Admiral
Admiral
I just started writing a fan fic about Commander Sinclair's recall to Earth and appointment as the new Earth Ambassador to Minbar, writing a scene right now where he meets with President Clark and have always wondered if Clark had a keeper? I know that men and women in power can be corrupted by greed and others influence without the influence of an evil creature, but some of Clark's actions while he was in power seemed to indicate that he was in favor of the Shadows. Also the way he committed suicide at the end of season four...was he doing that to avoid obvoius capture or simply ending the life of his keeper and freeing himself? The answer is probably no but I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts.
 
Yeah, I don't think he had a keeper. The keepers were part of the Drahks, the servants of the Shadows (and also where I get my namesake). We only saw them crop up once the Shadows were out of the picture.

Now, we do know that the Shadows were manipulating events all over the galaxy and we saw some Shadows on Earth with the government, so I don't think it's a stretch to imagine that Clark was given a similar deal as Londo was, namely power in return for certain favors being done.

I imagine the favors he was asked were not things that he had a problem with. I do think that because of this, he panicked when Sheridan's forces arrived, realizing he was on his own and would have to admit his alliances, ruining his credibility (especially seeing how much of his tenure was built on xenophobia, to have it come out that he was actually aided by aliens would not have helped). I think this forced him to conclude that if he killed himself, he might become a martyr to those who believed as he did, whereas if he were captured and arrested alive, the truth would come out, leaving those that were on his side to abandon him.
 
Yeah I thought as much...but it's an interesting idea that I'm going to toy around with in my story to see if it works. Shiv'Kala is the Drakh shown that gives Londo his keeper and later is given his name in the Centauri Prime books. Also on a personal note...dude...it's been a long time but you may remember me as Dark Destroyer from the Allspark I remember you as Chronoscythe. PM me your email and we can catch up.
 
Chances are that if Clark was influenced by anybody it would have been the Psi Corps.

Jan
 
The Shadows had keepers. They were called the Shadows. Seriously these Elder gods were micro managers. Dellenn said that their agents were never alone when Sheridan was trying to figure out what Morden had to do with his wifes death.

The Psi Corps would have got their asses handed to them if they'd tried to put the whammy on him through a couple Shadows standing guard over their investment.
 
The Babylon 5 file book does imply that Clark MAY have had a Keeper to explain why he did that "The Ascension of the Common Man" thing to signify "Scorched Earth". It was to circumvent the Keeper's control.
 
I'm with Ensign Redshirt on this one. I think Clarks path to the presidency was all his own doing. No keeper, no visits from Mr Morden. Just plain old megalomania. I believe the Shadows used some of these events as leverage rather than actually instigating them.

Look at Morden. The greed had to be there for him to be enabled to "help". I think this is typical of the MO of the Shadows early on in their return, but getting to a head of state that early? Nah.
 
I'm pretty sure I've heard JMS say that Clark having a keeper would kind of undermine the entire Earth Civil War storyline and I have to agree with him.
 
This is aside from the Keeper thing then, but why exactly DID Clark do that "Ascension of the Common Man" thing before he killed himself?
 
This is aside from the Keeper thing then, but why exactly DID Clark do that "Ascension of the Common Man" thing before he killed himself?

Not to Godwin the thread, but Hitler was willing to let Germany be destroyed, he ordered his men to blow up things--which they didn't do, can't remember the guy--but Hitler was upset at the loss of the war and blamed the people for the failure.

Perhaps Clark blamed the people of the Earth for the failure, and thought they deserved death.
 
This is aside from the Keeper thing then, but why exactly DID Clark do that "Ascension of the Common Man" thing before he killed himself?

I'm afraid that the only answer to that is a real-life one. John Copeland (the director for that episode) wanted to nod to Kubrick in his episode. JMS posted:
"Well, unless its a coincidence, the "circled doodled message left by
madman after he commits suicide" is VERY similar to what happens in Dr.
Strangelove. Again, maybe its JMS's homage to Kubrick (like the "2001"
style spacesuit that appeared in a second or third season episode, I
forget which, of B5)."

Just to clarify this....

Re: the note...the script as written calls only for the finding
of a note with the words "scorched earth" on it. It was John
Copeland's idea to do the note as shown, and yes, he's said quite
openly over on AOL that it was his nod to Strangelove. (John directed
that episode.)

Jan
 
Clark had dealing with Morden alright, we heard Morden tell him Earthforce One is set to go kaboom after all and yes, the Drakh and the keepers were involved as they attempted to take out the head of Mars Resistance. However, I don't think Clark had a keeper because it wouldn't have been necessary for much the same reason that they didn't put one on Londo until much later.

The Shadows were about encourageing ambition and conflict to (in their minds) help the younger races, forcing leaders into actions that were against the grain wasn't their style, they tended to perfer to give people enough rope to hang themselves, or someone else with. Besides, a Keeper is a bit of a blunt instrument and it's not fullproof. The Drakh seem to lean on them a bit since they had nowhere near the knowledge and resources of the Shadows and their goals and methods were not quite the same as one another.
 
Nah, Clark was just a power-hungry fascist. Nothing mysterious about that.

My take also. Since Clark is Babylon 5's greatest unanswered question, this seems to be the best guess.

He also clearly hated anything that wasn't human. In that respect, he's alot like Enterprise's Trip.
 
For those who don't think that Clark had Shadow help, what about the evidence Ivanova discovered when she used the Great Machine, showing how Morden helped him assassinate Luis Santiago?

I think learning the past behind Clark might be interesting. I see him as a politician who used the Earth-Minbari War to push his career. I figure he probably started out as a junior senator when the war ended by pushing his xenophobic agenda at a time when humanity was just on the brink of death due to an alien race.

He probably spent a few years in the senate, toning down his vitriol when the public started to become more accepting of aliens. Around then, he caught the eye of the party, who thought their candidate, Luis Santiago needed someone who balanced his pro-alien views. They recruited him to be the vice president and earned votes from those who still felt wary about aliens.
 
He lost his klan membership after he began boffing that alien.

Used green tampons in the trash bin are hard to explain to a visiting grand chicken wizard.

The ascension of the common man, failing the real life answers supplied here, i had always taken to be about Telepaths and evolution, however just now rethinking the subject, Bush, the Younger was far too common for the possession, provincial and small rather than thick, but that too, superficially even possibly, he strove for and matters became clear after the fact by looking at the mess the world is in right now about what happens when you don't place exceptional people in positions that require exceptional people.

I'm with Ensign Redshirt on this one. I think Clarks path to the presidency was all his own doing. No keeper, no visits from Mr Morden. Just plain old megalomania. I believe the Shadows used some of these events as leverage rather than actually instigating them.

Look at Morden. The greed had to be there for him to be enabled to "help". I think this is typical of the MO of the Shadows early on in their return, but getting to a head of state that early? Nah.
The Shadows were not evil. technically they might have to do evil things, but their ends justify their means, so the people who loved them and worked for hem were not (completely) evil, and by the way, greed is fucking magnificent, but who is to say that was Clark's driving force? Not telling his story was a great idea, but turning him into a casually evil gentlemen with no confliction, wise council or redeeming values is just transparent story telling, because I have two theories, the first is of course that Clarke thought that only he could save the Earth and he wasn't going to let smaller men stand in his way either saving it differently and ungracefully or failing completely, Dude, he was just as huge a hero as when Picard Took over the stargazer of George Kirk took over from Robau or Lando took over for Han (I have no idea why Chewie didn't sack up?) or Hotrod picked up the Matrix after Optimus Prime fell, and the second is that Louis Santiago in private, might have been a complete cunt to Clarke every second of the day... I mean seriously, don't you think that Weyland should have taken an axe to Mr Burn's face already after all those years of abuse from on high?
 
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I'm with Ensign Redshirt on this one. I think Clarks path to the presidency was all his own doing. No keeper, no visits from Mr Morden. Just plain old megalomania. I believe the Shadows used some of these events as leverage rather than actually instigating them.

Look at Morden. The greed had to be there for him to be enabled to "help". I think this is typical of the MO of the Shadows early on in their return, but getting to a head of state that early? Nah.

Again, I ask, how do you reconcile this with the evidence Ivanova uncovered in "Voices of Authority" which showed Morden was not only involved in Santiago's assassination, but also in contact with Clark at the time?

The Shadows were not evil. technically they might have to do evil things, but their ends justify their means, so the people who loved them and worked for hem were not (completely) evil, and by the way, greed is fucking magnificent, but who is to say that was Clark's driving force?

Since this thread has already been Godwin'd, I guess the door is open to bring up the Nazis. You could make the same argument there, that they were not evil, but that they did evil things because they felt their ends justified their means.

Which is not to say I don't get your point. The Shadows were not acting out of malice, but were rather, in their own way, seeing to the evolution of the Universe by creating conflict, which forced living beings to adapt and change. One need only look at the numerous technological advances, especially in the field of medicine that has come from military technology, to see their point. It's the old science fiction cliche of a race being given "peace" and an end to conflict only to wither and die because there is no motivation to change, adapt, and evolve.

I have two theories, the first is of course that Clarke thought that only he could save the Earth and he wasn't going to let smaller men stand in his way either saving it differently and ungracefully or failing completely, Dude, he was just as huge a hero as when Picard Took over the stargazer of George Kirk took over from Robau or Lando took over for Han (I have no idea why Chewie didn't sack up?) or Hotrod picked up the Matrix after Optimus Prime fell

In his head was he similar most likely, yes? But, in those cases their actions directly saved lives, whereas Clark's policies, I think you are going to have to work really hard to convince me that his policies directly saved lives, especially in light of the fact that many of the alien races, at least after the Earth-Minbari War were Earth's allies.

and the second is that Louis Santiago in private, might have been a complete cunt to Clarke every second of the day... I mean seriously, don't you think that Weyland should have taken an axe to Mr Burn's face already after all those years of abuse from on high?

That may have been the case, but it is not valid cause for murder. Furthermore, even if he were constantly berated, I think his need for power was a more potent force behind his assassination of Santiago than because the guy was being a dick to him.
 
There's no question that Clark had support from the Shadows, it's repeatedly stated quite clearly from several sources, even Bester said so and it was the Shadow's departure that scared him to actively going after B5.

As for his suicide note, I always took it as a reference to his own sense of personal success, or perhaps some delusion of apotheosis.

As far as his motivations go, it's clear that he was an increasingly paranoid control freak. As vice president he instituted the telepath verified "loyalty tests" and he clearly said he'd wanted Santiago dead for a long time (not the thought of a stable mind!) and just look at what he said after his swearing in: -

"We will begin by focusing on the needs of our own people to sustain them through this difficult time and prepare them for the tasks ahead."

Just like with Londo, the Shadows saw in him an ambition that would work for their purposes and backed his play for power and with his ties to Psi-Corp (they had controversially endorsed him back when he was vice president) they saw an opportunity to overcome their technology's Achilles heel.
 
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