Did Khan Design The Vengeance or Just The Weapons?

[Cyke101]

The Star Trek: Khan comic had the Vengeance already under construction when Khan was brought to the project. Which is how I view it, as I think it would be impossible to design and build a new ship in less than a year.

That's reasonable, but I still want to blame the pointless hole in the saucer on him, just because he khan.

Anyway, building the Vengeance in a few months? Yeah, that's a bit too extreme. But designing and building those little drones that have their own phasers and torpedoes, and then do a suicide run when they're all out, seems much more feasible in that time, and they were kicking the Enterprise's butt over the moon.

 

[Nerys Myk]

He designed everything, including the uniforms

 

[F. King Daniel]

You have to buy into the idea that humanity has gone soft in the all-too-utopian future - "Marcus needed to respond to an uncivilized threat in a civilized time." Khan basically reinvented drone weapons for the 23rd century. And as for the Vengeance being built in a year, if you throw enough money at a project it'll get done. Khan wouldn't have worked alone - I doubt the Daystrom namedrop was coincidence especially considering the Vengeance's solo pilot abilities (and the "computer brain" behind the captain's chair according to the set blueprints)

Personally I think the idea of a "soft" humanity is a better fit for the TNG era than TOS, but considering Trek tech hasn't really changed between ENT and VOY, it's a believable interpretation.

 

[Timo]

But designing and building those little drones that have their own phasers and torpedoes, and then do a suicide run when they're all out, seems much more feasible in that time, and they were kicking the Enterprise's butt over the moon.

The only problem I have with those is that Marcus used at least one of them against the Enterprise...

Why waste a perfectly good weapon in a fight with a foregone conclusion? The Enterprise was already blasted to bits and helpless when that drone was deployed. So, just a test run of the tech to see if it really works? Or did that drone in fact fly back when it turned out a suicide run wasn't needed?

As regards the Daystrom name-drop, perhaps the man is already dead, to have buildings named after him? (Or kidnapped by S31, or bribed by it into faking his own death?)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[WarpFactorZ]

As regards the Daystrom name-drop, perhaps the man is already dead, to have buildings named after him? (Or kidnapped by S31, or bribed by it into faking his own death?)

He doesn't have to be dead to have buildings named after him. Daystrom can simply have written a check and be the benefactor for its construction.

 

[Richard Baker]

I could see Khan advising on weapons systems and suggesting newer applications of developing technologies- sort of like the first guy to suggest putting MIRVs on ICBMs.

In 'The Space Seed' he had an opportunity to learn enough about the TOS Enterprise to cripple the ship in Engineering, in 'The Wrath of Khan' Federation tech had advanced a lot but we do not know how long it took to learn the newer machinery on the Reliant. He might have just wanted to get the basics so he could rush off to kill Kirk. He was in a hurry because according to Terrell he did not even spend searching the station for Genesis- if he had gone down to the transporter room he would have figured out where the device was hidden. Learning all about the technology in a ship as complex as the Reliant would take some time, I do not think his not knowing some obscure part of how Federation ships work is a lack of intelligence, just the result of impatience.

If Marcus had him advising on the final stages of construction of the Vengeance and it's weapons, Khan would take advantage of it. Knowing the internal arrangement and systems needed to take it over if he got an opportunity I think would be a given.

 

[TRON JA307020]

I could see Khan advising on weapons systems and suggesting newer applications of developing technologies- sort of like the first guy to suggest putting MIRVs on ICBMs.

In 'The Space Seed' he had an opportunity to learn enough about the TOS Enterprise to cripple the ship in Engineering, in 'The Wrath of Khan' Federation tech had advanced a lot but we do not know how long it took to learn the newer machinery on the Reliant. He might have just wanted to get the basics so he could rush off to kill Kirk. He was in a hurry because according to Terrell he did not even spend searching the station for Genesis- if he had gone down to the transporter room he would have figured out where the device was hidden. Learning all about the technology in a ship as complex as the Reliant would take some time, I do not think his not knowing some obscure part of how Federation ships work is a lack of intelligence, just the result of impatience.

If Marcus had him advising on the final stages of construction of the Vengeance and it's weapons, Khan would take advantage of it. Knowing the internal arrangement and systems needed to take it over if he got an opportunity I think would be a given.

Yeah he probably was more a adviser on what types of weapons to develop. I would think Marcus used alien technology or had personal set of engineers to give the vengeance extra speed. I am going to rewatch the movie soon to see if I can glean any information and get a better hold on how the ship was built. I have only seen the movie once and need to see it again.

 

[drt]

He may have helped with some structural and internal design (one of the reasons why he was able to navigate the interiors of the Vengeance so well), but I don't know if he had a hand in its more technical aspects like the ship's streamlined crew requirements (even being able to be run by only one person), and warp drive.

I believe the streamlined crew requirements were Khan's idea - and it just so happens that the optimal crew would be 72 augments, now to smuggle them aboard somehow... someplace no one would think to look...

 

[martok2112]

He may have helped with some structural and internal design (one of the reasons why he was able to navigate the interiors of the Vengeance so well), but I don't know if he had a hand in its more technical aspects like the ship's streamlined crew requirements (even being able to be run by only one person), and warp drive.

I believe the streamlined crew requirements were Khan's idea - and it just so happens that the optimal crew would be 72 augments, now to smuggle them aboard somehow... someplace no one would think to look...

I like how you think!

 

[Timo]

And knowing how Khan thinks, perhaps the new and faster warp drive is merely the old warp drive with all the safeties removed?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

It seems plausible that the Vengeance's ability to operate with a minimum of crew is due to Khan's involvement. He probably designed it that way with the intention of stealing it later. Be a lot easier to operate the ship if he's the only crew on board...

 

[fireproof78]

And knowing how Khan thinks, perhaps the new and faster warp drive is merely the old warp drive with all the safeties removed?

Timo Saloniemi

That could be a good built in safety feature, as anyone who doesn't know the proper way to maintain the warp core operating without the safeties would destroy the ship.

 

[Timo]

Admiral Marcus sounds like a man who only takes advice he already approves of. Khan is his mad dog on a short leash, and Marcus will listen to his barks but interpret them in his own way. And Khan no doubt knows this very well.

So whatever Khan built, it's likely to be what Marcus originally was building anyway - only with a few twists that sounded good to Marcus in terms of his plan to destroy the Klingons, but were introduced by Khan solely for his plan to release his crew and conquer the universe...

If Khan went overboard with designs that only served his own plans (torpedoes with secret compartments, superships crewed by 72 people, a complex plan to start the Klingon war where a key element was letting Khan himself escape to Qo'noS), he'd be caught, though. So he'd help out Marcus for real, but only so far. IMHO, the war machinery we saw in the movie was from Khan on an off day, far from the worst he could dream up.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[TRON JA307020]

You have to buy into the idea that humanity has gone soft in the all-too-utopian future - "Marcus needed to respond to an uncivilized threat in a civilized time." Khan basically reinvented drone weapons for the 23rd century. And as for the Vengeance being built in a year, if you throw enough money at a project it'll get done. Khan wouldn't have worked alone - I doubt the Daystrom namedrop was coincidence especially considering the Vengeance's solo pilot abilities (and the "computer brain" behind the captain's chair according to the set blueprints)

Personally I think the idea of a "soft" humanity is a better fit for the TNG era than TOS, but considering Trek tech hasn't really changed between ENT and VOY, it's a believable interpretation.

The thing is after seeing what Marcus did to the Enterprise its obvious not all of humanity has gone soft. Actually Marcus is more blood thirsty than Khan because he blasted away the Enterprise and never once felt remorse for killing all those Starfleet officers. Basically he killed his own people pretty ruthlessly. Marcus should have designed the weapons himself because he was the total opposite of "soft".

 

[WarpFactorZ]

I think the entire notion that Khan (aka "three hundred year old frozen man") had any iota of technical input to the Vengeance is nonsense -- particularly given the fact that he had less than a year to do it. Sure, he's a genetically-engineered superhuman, but that doesn't mean he has the knowhow to not only design weapons and starships, but design them with technology he's completely unfamiliar with.

I think it would have made much more sense to:

(1) Have Khan carry out Marcus' personal "special ops", which would be a better use of his "savagery."

(2) Instead of the destruction of Vulcan being the catalyst for Marcus' aggressive expansion of Starfleet, have the destruction of the Kelvin be the initial catalyst. Surely Section 31 would have jumped all over that as a potential threat, even if the top brass at Starfleet didn't think twice about it afterward.

Khan is discovered a decade earlier, and is better integrated into SF / Section 31 at that point.

 

[BillJ]

(2) Instead of the destruction of Vulcan being the catalyst for Marcus' aggressive expansion of Starfleet, have the destruction of the Kelvin be the initial catalyst. Surely Section 31 would have jumped all over that as a potential threat, even if the top brass at Starfleet didn't think twice about it afterward.

If we work under the assumption that the Vengeance was already under construction, then the Kelvin incident likely played more than a minor role. The destruction of Vulcan probably allowed people like Marcus to begin and operate more openly and reallocate resources without as much scrutiny.

 

[Kemaiku]

The Kelvin Archives were a front for the construction of Section 31's primary weapons R&D facility and manufacturing plant.

It was also likely were the Vengeance was designed, the construction phase was around Jupiter once that was done.

It already *was* the catalyst for Marcus and his plans.

 

[TRON JA307020]

I think the entire notion that Khan (aka "three hundred year old frozen man") had any iota of technical input to the Vengeance is nonsense -- particularly given the fact that he had less than a year to do it. Sure, he's a genetically-engineered superhuman, but that doesn't mean he has the knowhow to not only design weapons and starships, but design them with technology he's completely unfamiliar with.

I think it would have made much more sense to:

(1) Have Khan carry out Marcus' personal "special ops", which would be a better use of his "savagery."

(2) Instead of the destruction of Vulcan being the catalyst for Marcus' aggressive expansion of Starfleet, have the destruction of the Kelvin be the initial catalyst. Surely Section 31 would have jumped all over that as a potential threat, even if the top brass at Starfleet didn't think twice about it afterward.

Khan is discovered a decade earlier, and is better integrated into SF / Section 31 at that point.

Agreed Warp Factor. I consider things like that plot holes. Marcus should have used Khan in a different way. Others here are saying that the 23rd century humans are so soft and cant develop nasty enough weapons so Marcus used Khan a devious and savage man. The thing is Marcus is devious and savage he should not have needed Khans help in weapon development at all. The writes of STID wrote this way on Lost which had tons of plot holes and dead end stories. I am glad they won't be writing the next one.

 

[Cyke101]

I think the entire notion that Khan (aka "three hundred year old frozen man") had any iota of technical input to the Vengeance is nonsense -- particularly given the fact that he had less than a year to do it.

We're a board that's definitely nowhere near as smart or resourceful as Khan (in any reality) but we spend our days on a board discussing and debating the limits, practical applications, and innovations (or lack thereof) of fictional 23rd-24th century technology on a daily basis. That's generally not considered nonsense.

In essence, whenever Trekkies talk about ship design and M5 systems and the number of torpedo tubes that can go in a ship, it's recreational self-indulgence at its best; but if a fictional character does it, then we lose our minds. If we can do it, so can Khan (or Scotty, for that matter). If we nerds can do that from our living rooms after work, certainly a genetic superman doing the same thing with little sleep is an improvement.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

We're a board that's definitely nowhere near as smart or resourceful as Khan (in any reality) but we spend our days on a board discussing and debating the limits, practical applications, and innovations (or lack thereof) of fictional 23rd-24th century technology on a daily basis. That's generally not considered nonsense.

Yes, because *WE* are debating fictional things that have no (or limited) basis in reality.

... but if a fictional character does it, then we lose our minds. If we can do it, so can Khan (or Scotty, for that matter).

No, Khan "lives" in this fictional universe that is supposed to be "real". He doesn't have the luxury of pontificating about fictional tech, because in his universe it isn't fictional. I suppose he could do it, but it would make his character and the story completely unbelievable. The story needs its own internal consistency to work.

Furthermore, what exactly was it that he was supposed to contribute? What was his "savagery" going to add to the conversation? Surely those most familiar with 23rd century weapons are going to have thought of all the things to do with them. Unless, of course, Khan was supposed to say "You know those new long range torpedoes? Instead of firing them on a city, it would be cool if you stuck them up the Klingons' asses, *then* detonated!" Now that's savage!