Did Kelvin Spock know about Hobus?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies: Kelvin Universe' started by shivkala, Nov 23, 2022.

  1. shivkala

    shivkala Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The thought that popped into my head keeping me awake last night was, "How will Kelvin Spock react to the Hobus Supernova," which led to, "What of Prime Spock's life does Kelvin Spock know?" Specifically, though, does Kelvin Spock know of the Hobus events? We saw him pilot the Jellyfish, but did he get any information on it?

    I know Prime Spock melded with Kelvin Kirk, but I think it's clear he never melded with Kelvin Spock (hence the need for the scene in Into Darkness regarding the information about Khan. So either, at some point, off-screen, they melded or Prime Spock could have told him or left him a way to get the information.

    There's also the question of whether Prime Spock would have told Kelvin Spock about Hobus. He reluctantly gave the information about Khan, but only when asked directly. However, it's probably fair to say Prime Spock's biggest regret would have been failing to stop the supernova. Would he have taken the time to tell Kelvin Spock about it, so he could work to avert it in this timeline?

    And, yes, I do know that while the origins of the Supernova were never told, canonically, other sources have made it something artificially created. That doesn't really change my question, as, assuming the events leading up to the supernova were similar, it doesn't preclude it from happening in the Kelvin timeline. At best, it would mean it could be averted earlier, either by Prime Spock prior to Beyond or Kelvin Spock.
     
  2. Tuskin38

    Tuskin38 Admiral Admiral

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    Also canonically, it's the Romulan home star now because of Picard.

    The name Hobus was always from non-canon sources. The movie just said a star, and I believe the script for 09 just said it was somewhere in the beta Quadrant, but no name was given.
     
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  3. F. King Daniel

    F. King Daniel Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I sometimes wonder if that Into Oblivion scene with Shatner and Nimoy as Old Kelvin Kirk and Old Kelvin Spock was going to be a "happily ever after" showing the Romulan supernova being successfully thwarted in 2387, Romulus saved and them joining the Federation or something.
     
  4. Dukhat

    Dukhat Vice Admiral Admiral

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    STID established that Prime Spock did not mention future events to anyone in the Kelvin timeline. Which doesn't make much sense as the two timelines are radically different and would be completely unrecognizable by the 24th century.
     
  5. Ovation

    Ovation Admiral Admiral

    It does display some affinity for a notion of non-interference—an attitude deeply inculcated into Starfleet. Seems consistent with the character.
     
  6. jackoverfull

    jackoverfull Commodore Commodore

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    Since he’s living in a new timeline and helping rebuilding a Vulcan society it would be only logical for him to take the necessary steps to avoid the disaster. Those aren’t necessarily relevant for the movies and actually don’t necessarily involve the new Spock.
     
  7. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Some thing...something Temporal Prime Directive.
     
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  8. shivkala

    shivkala Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Another Star Trek Mandela Effect, like "Beam me up, Scotty." Being so involved in forums like this, Memory Alpha, and Beta Canon, I got so wrapped up in it, I didn't even realize it was never said in canon.

    Memory Alpha indicates it was the Romulan star that went supernova, based on the first episode of Picard. The Countdown comic was that one that introduced Hobus and did not seem to mention the Romulan sun itself.

    I did address this in my original post, as when it came down to it, Prime Spock did divulge information on Khan, after his "Non-interference/destiny" speech. I interpreted that scene as Prime Spock willing to interfere in certain events. I can only imagine the supernova would be one of them.

    Looking into it, Beyond takes place in 2263, five years after Spock arrived in this timeline. In the grand scheme of things, Prime Spock did not have long to work on this. What's more, there was almost 125 years until the star goes supernova, so unless he was able to deal with that in those five years, it's only logical he would have had some way to communicate to Kelvin Spock what the plan was so he could continue.

    Which is the heart of the question I'm asking (which I know is not answerable with canon alone). I guess I'm firmly on the side of, "Prime Spock would have been working towards a solution and would have involved Kelvin Spock some way." Despite his non-interference talk, we did see him carve out a trademarked Spock loophole by giving Kelvin Spock information on Khan. Whether it was directly or through a will (like Georgiou did for Burnham), I do think Prime Spock would have communicated information about the supernova to his younger self.

    If it helps, perhaps Kelvin Spock opens up the dialogue by stating he gleamed some information from the Jellyfish (another thing that's only named in Beta canon) and knows there was some supernova event. Prime Spock seems to behave in the Kelvin movies as that would be enough to divulge more information.

    A related question, though, is whether or not Prime Spock would encourage Kelvin Spock to work towards Unification with the Romulans as he did.
     
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  9. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I think eventually he would have. I think Prime Spock would have laid the groundwork for inroads in to unification eventually. But, he also had the benefit of wisdom in that his younger self needed to experience his life, and not just follow in his alternate's ambitions.
     
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  10. Relayer1

    Relayer1 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I don't find it hard to believe that Prime and Kelvin Spock melded at some point, or alternatively, Prime Spock left his Katra for his younger self to discover.
     
  11. shivkala

    shivkala Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Good point! If we ever got the "James and George Kirk meet" movie, a great B plot would have been Kelvin Spock dealing with Prime Spock's Katra.
     
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  12. Set Harth

    Set Harth Vice Admiral Admiral

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    How does this in any way make sense? If it was the Romulan home star, why would Spock have thought he had a chance to save Romulus? Wouldn't Romulus have been annihilated more or less immediately?
     
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  13. David cgc

    David cgc Admiral Premium Member

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    If you want, over in TrekLit, there's an exhaustive (or, perhaps, just exhausting) debate in some thread about the PIC novels over whether the increase in scientific plausibility by having Romulus being in imminent danger because of its own star exploding instead of a nearby one whose effects would take years to devastate the planet was worth making Spock's actions nonsensical and absurd, from the impossibility of saving Romulus from a nova by turning its star into a black hole, which wouldn't be much of an improvement, to the fact that containing the nova after it destroyed Romulus wouldn't make much difference to the scope of the disaster under this framing.
     
  14. flandry84

    flandry84 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Now that the OP has raised the point,yeah Spock did meld with Kirk(Pine).
    Shouldn’t Kirk have been more prepared for Khans antics?
     
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  15. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Depends on just how much Spock shared with Kirk. IIRC, Spock's main objective in that meld was to get information, not share it.
     
  16. M'Sharak

    M'Sharak Definitely Herbert. Maybe. Moderator

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    Spock melded with Kirk as a more expedient means of getting him up to speed on what had happened with Nero / red matter / supernova.

    spocktoya-splain-sum-resize.png

    Khan would have been entirely extraneous to that topic, no?
     
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  17. flandry84

    flandry84 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Extraneous??
    The guy who was directly or indirectly responsible for Spocks death and the guy he called the deadliest foe the Enterprise crew ever faced would I think be foremost in Spocks mind.
    And I never heard that there were different levels of mind-meld.Meld-lite?
     
  18. David cgc

    David cgc Admiral Premium Member

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    Foremost in his mind? Khan's been dead for over a hundred years from Spock's perspective, about two-thirds of his life (or, alternatively, his entire life, post-resurrection). He just saw two planets he has a strong sentimental attachment to disintegrated in the past couple of days. He's got bigger problems.

    And there's no reason to think a mind-meld necessarily, permanently is a total two-way copy of each participant's memories. If that was the case, for instance, Kirk-Prime would've learned about Sybok from his numerous melds with Spock in season three (plus one with Sarek in TSFS).
     
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  19. flandry84

    flandry84 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    So it’s more of a mind caress then.
    And yeah,dying is something you don’t do every second week (unless you are a Marvel superhero) so yeah,in times of peril and distress I can see Spock having all sorts of traumatic thoughts in his mind.

    Again it seems as in so much of Trek,mind-melds,transporters etc. vary to suit storytelling demands.
     
  20. M'Sharak

    M'Sharak Definitely Herbert. Maybe. Moderator

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    For a story in which Nero is the adversary and Khan appears not at all, why would you assume that it is Khan who would be foremost in Spock's mind?

    When have we seen a Vulcan mind meld which acted as an infodump containing "everything you might possibly ever need to know about anything"? All the ones I can bring to mind focused on a specific and immediate task or issue. Is there an instance of a broadband meld I'm simply not remembering?
     
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