Did Janeway Kill Tuvix?
- Thread starter Chief Medical Officer
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Maybe they will have a dramatic trial/hearing/legal thingie in the new series that answers the transporter malfunction situations once and for all. The rights of accidental transporter clones, who gets the dog when someone is split in half...how to determine when and if to split the guy with the meshed brain cells and personalities...
Or an alien character whose natural state is to possess two consciousnesses in one body.
Trek future lawyers must have to study far more than anyone else.
Maybe that's what the new show will be. Federation lawyers just trying to deal with the legal consequences of all the new, weird, spacey shit that happens out there.
Trek future lawyers must have to study far more than anyone else.
Maybe that's what the new show will be. Federation lawyers just trying to deal with the legal consequences of all the new, weird, spacey shit that happens out there.
The Kirk Within, B'Elanna from faces and Sonak were all in-viable.
The Riker Boys, and Tuvix were medically hunky dory.
Oh...
Duration of life doesn't necessarily trump quality of life, otherwise Kes would have been Tuvix to add (hopefully) decades to her life.
The Riker Boys, and Tuvix were medically hunky dory.
Oh...
Duration of life doesn't necessarily trump quality of life, otherwise Kes would have been Tuvix to add (hopefully) decades to her life.
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Then the Federation lawyers' heads explode. I see the new show in a kind of law and order format where in the first half, some weird shit happens in space and then in the second, the lawyers back on Earth try to work out what the fuck kind of legal precedent it sets.
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No, I haven't, but if I had, I certainly wouldn't tell you about it!!!! I can imagine the questions. Anyway, the justification isn't flowery (oh, Guy, that's such a clever one!!!) One can assume that the act was murder, or justify it by claiming Tuvix's sentience trumps any other consideration. The simple fact of the matter is, that his continuing to exist is impeding the interrupted iterations that he is constituted from, from being revived from their suspended, not dead, state. Nothing else matters or is of any relevance. I take great satisfaction that Hux agrees with this contention, but the whole issue of the struggle fo Tuvok and Neelix becoming able to speak for themselves within Tuvix, is just needless rigmarole that can only function to cede some of the inevitable conclusion's forcefulness. If some means were being taken to reinitiate either from a brain dead state to somehow magically restore life and consciousness, it would be another story altogether. But neither of them has lost anything, they are just imprisoned, and as would be the situation if they were trapped in a prison of walls and force fields, there would be no question of any attempt needing to be rendered to allow their release being done. Janeway has done nothing, but her sworn duty to protect and safeguard the lives of her crew. I certainly believe, though, that she suffered psychic harm, if not trauma, by doing what had to be done, but still an act, that had the appearance, and appearance only, of what you so blithely conclude.
Actually, if you check when this episode occurred during the season, you'll quickly see that the behavior you're referencing was resolved over half of the year before, way back in Parturition.
Mostly poppycock here. What sort of trial was going to establish a workable criteria for making the decision, that ultimately had to be done. Tuvix was clearly sentient and the only meaning that actually held was that it had been usurped from two other individuals who were still viable, stuck in a kind of stasis that Tuvix's dissolution had to be undertaken to restore. What stated judgement arrived by such a proceeding would serve to ignore or obviate this basic fact? Not needed. Hell, talk about flowery, make they could have had a holo Cogley represent Tuvix!!!
Further flights of fancy; Neelix was allowed to kill Jonas? I think the visual evidence shows that the two were engaged in basically a fight to the death, and Neelix simply prevailed. That is, unless you've altered that evidence Lt. Com. Finney.
What would be the point of trying Suder? Just to find another means to decide the type of sentence he should receive? He admitted the crime, Tuvok "witnessed" it, and as it happens, his sentence was quite salutary for him, as he was being rehabilitated in the manner that the 24th century legal system, saw fit and proper.
Janeway was clearly within her province to decide any non-corporal punishment she wished for the remaining crew members of a ship that, by its actions, made everyone complicit in murder and genocide. No reason they shouldn't have gotten shit assignments, with basically no privileges. Not exactly slaves either, as Janeway offered the possibility of reduction in their punishment if they shined up those conduits real good, while keeping their mouths shut.
The Doctor? In this tidy little drama, I think he comes off about the worst of anyone, even Kes. What kind of f****ing dumbass is going to thoroughly research and perfect a method of action, that he will have no intention of implementing? So, he can do his duty, and stick the responsibility on someone else? If he's ethically bound to refuse to follow through with such an operation, and I can accept that would be the case, why in the world would he acquiesce in having even the intent of developing the means in the first place? Just refuse to even consider such work due to his programming. Torres could have changed it if the captain was determined that any possible be pursued. As presented, though kind of a brain dead thought process.
This is exactly the case and stated as succinctly as is really demanded!!!!
Possibly, though it's easier just to say that he recognized that there were no white knights lurking in the crowd and rather than resort to be bodily dragged out, he would make his exit on his own terms. However, that clarity you refer to, while not without evidence as we saw him live his short existence, wouldn't be out of the realm of showing such an impact as you are offering.
If you'll remember, he couldn't pursue that course of action. The meld/merge had to take place with someone related to him.
I would certainly think so, with the same justifications. But I think it would go without saying that an episode wouldn't be taken up with such a crisis being inflicted on characters from the "lower depths", though, personally I think it would have been very interesting, if not compelling, if such had been the choice.
I wouldn't typify her reaction as being logical, and in fact didn't display her characteristic clarity of thought. OTOH, in a way, it served to invalidate a sense of her being so perfect; here she was in what must have seemed an overwhelmingly conflicting emotional crisis and her response mirrored that. That by doing so, she delivered Tuvix's coup de grace, was an unfortunate outcome that one wonders if she reflected about later on. Still the result was an inevitable one, lest a decision be made to clone him, so that we might enjoy a future adventure or two of his, especially mingling with his progenitors.
[
Well, I'll go along with the latter contention, I suppose, given the incipient interest we are supposed to infer they show in "Photons Be Free"
Which would be the preferred template to use for this novel new approach? The Practice or Boston Legal, to pick two totally random examples.
No, I haven't, but if I had, I certainly wouldn't tell you about it!!!! I can imagine the questions. Anyway, the justification isn't flowery (oh, Guy, that's such a clever one!!!) One can assume that the act was murder, or justify it by claiming Tuvix's sentience trumps any other consideration. The simple fact of the matter is, that his continuing to exist is impeding the interrupted iterations that he is constituted from, from being revived from their suspended, not dead, state. Nothing else matters or is of any relevance. I take great satisfaction that Hux agrees with this contention, but the whole issue of the struggle fo Tuvok and Neelix becoming able to speak for themselves within Tuvix, is just needless rigmarole that can only function to cede some of the inevitable conclusion's forcefulness. If some means were being taken to reinitiate either from a brain dead state to somehow magically restore life and consciousness, it would be another story altogether. But neither of them has lost anything, they are just imprisoned, and as would be the situation if they were trapped in a prison of walls and force fields, there would be no question of any attempt needing to be rendered to allow their release being done. Janeway has done nothing, but her sworn duty to protect and safeguard the lives of her crew. I certainly believe, though, that she suffered psychic harm, if not trauma, by doing what had to be done, but still an act, that had the appearance, and appearance only, of what you so blithely conclude.
Actually, if you check when this episode occurred during the season, you'll quickly see that the behavior you're referencing was resolved over half of the year before, way back in Parturition.
There was no trial to determine personhood.
Data got one and he's a fucking toaster.
Quinn's trial was determine his sanity.
Neelix was allowed to kill Michael Jonas.
Lon Suder didn't get a trial, apparently they took his word fr it about his guilt that awarded the man an 80 year long stay cation in his room, while everyone else worked their ass off.
The Equinox 5 were slaves thereafter. No trial.
Janeway is above the law.
Mostly poppycock here. What sort of trial was going to establish a workable criteria for making the decision, that ultimately had to be done. Tuvix was clearly sentient and the only meaning that actually held was that it had been usurped from two other individuals who were still viable, stuck in a kind of stasis that Tuvix's dissolution had to be undertaken to restore. What stated judgement arrived by such a proceeding would serve to ignore or obviate this basic fact? Not needed. Hell, talk about flowery, make they could have had a holo Cogley represent Tuvix!!!
Further flights of fancy; Neelix was allowed to kill Jonas? I think the visual evidence shows that the two were engaged in basically a fight to the death, and Neelix simply prevailed. That is, unless you've altered that evidence Lt. Com. Finney.
What would be the point of trying Suder? Just to find another means to decide the type of sentence he should receive? He admitted the crime, Tuvok "witnessed" it, and as it happens, his sentence was quite salutary for him, as he was being rehabilitated in the manner that the 24th century legal system, saw fit and proper.
Janeway was clearly within her province to decide any non-corporal punishment she wished for the remaining crew members of a ship that, by its actions, made everyone complicit in murder and genocide. No reason they shouldn't have gotten shit assignments, with basically no privileges. Not exactly slaves either, as Janeway offered the possibility of reduction in their punishment if they shined up those conduits real good, while keeping their mouths shut.
The Doctor? In this tidy little drama, I think he comes off about the worst of anyone, even Kes. What kind of f****ing dumbass is going to thoroughly research and perfect a method of action, that he will have no intention of implementing? So, he can do his duty, and stick the responsibility on someone else? If he's ethically bound to refuse to follow through with such an operation, and I can accept that would be the case, why in the world would he acquiesce in having even the intent of developing the means in the first place? Just refuse to even consider such work due to his programming. Torres could have changed it if the captain was determined that any possible be pursued. As presented, though kind of a brain dead thought process.
This is exactly the case and stated as succinctly as is really demanded!!!!
Possibly, though it's easier just to say that he recognized that there were no white knights lurking in the crowd and rather than resort to be bodily dragged out, he would make his exit on his own terms. However, that clarity you refer to, while not without evidence as we saw him live his short existence, wouldn't be out of the realm of showing such an impact as you are offering.
If you'll remember, he couldn't pursue that course of action. The meld/merge had to take place with someone related to him.
I would certainly think so, with the same justifications. But I think it would go without saying that an episode wouldn't be taken up with such a crisis being inflicted on characters from the "lower depths", though, personally I think it would have been very interesting, if not compelling, if such had been the choice.
I wouldn't typify her reaction as being logical, and in fact didn't display her characteristic clarity of thought. OTOH, in a way, it served to invalidate a sense of her being so perfect; here she was in what must have seemed an overwhelmingly conflicting emotional crisis and her response mirrored that. That by doing so, she delivered Tuvix's coup de grace, was an unfortunate outcome that one wonders if she reflected about later on. Still the result was an inevitable one, lest a decision be made to clone him, so that we might enjoy a future adventure or two of his, especially mingling with his progenitors.
[
Well, I'll go along with the latter contention, I suppose, given the incipient interest we are supposed to infer they show in "Photons Be Free"
Which would be the preferred template to use for this novel new approach? The Practice or Boston Legal, to pick two totally random examples.
(You misunderstood something unimportant I said.)
Tuvok could have transporter merged with a willing "friend" to become a new/different integrated lifeform similar to Tuvix, but not Tuvix, for 10 to twenty years afterwhich he then could become separated and receive a compatible healing meld.
Tuvok could have transporter merged with a willing "friend" to become a new/different integrated lifeform similar to Tuvix, but not Tuvix, for 10 to twenty years afterwhich he then could become separated and receive a compatible healing meld.
Hey man, never shortchange yourself!!!! It wasn't unimportant at all. Yet another example of my not properly reading something, because I think I've seen something awry. It happens way too fucking often and I've got to do something about it!!!! Maybe, it's time for me to get serious about those visits to my neurologist I've been mentioning lately. Or maybe, it's just time for me to take another hiatus from these fair environs. Got to think that one through!!!!
Anyway, thanks for graciously not busting my chops as I truly deserved.
A major conundrum. Disassembling Tuvix back into Neelix and Tuvok IS killing him. That combined person is no more. You can't really see him in Neelix or Tuvok. However, the reverse was true... you could see Neelix or Tuvok behavior in Tuvix.
If I were Janeway, I'd have had Tuvix put in stasis... even before he had the chance to think of a name. Why? Because the more time existing as this combined person, the more he makes a realization of a unique self. Give the doctor some time to explore the possibilities of a cure, even though they seemed incredibly remote. He DID find an answer after all and it worked. Of course, having Tuvix in stasis would remove the core plot device of the episode.
Now, if we remove the stasis option, I think Janeway should have addressed the situation right upfront, rather than "running away" from it (she seemed to have an aversion to handling Tuvix at first). I think it would have been best to make a pact right up front. Get the Tuvix being to resign himself to "decompilation" if a plausible solution is discovered. Get that rooted in his head from the get-go. Because it wasn't until he began to function as Tuvix for a week or so that he began to appreciate his "blended life." Then, life became precious to him... and he didn't want to give it up. Had he formally acknowledged that he'd comply with facing a solution to restore Neelix and Tuvok, then he'd not have let himself stray too far, imagining his ongoing life (he did explore a number of future possibilities).
Are two lives more important than one? Well, let's put it this way -- if Neelix and Tuvok were taken away in a different manner, let's say kidnapped by some aliens who had no interest in hostage negotiation and would even deny having captured them. Janeway would have to deploy an armed team to search for them. Would they kill some aliens in order to rescue them? Well, they'd try not to, but what if stunning aliens horribly damaged or killed them? Would they still "do what it takes" to get her crew members back? I think she would.
Now of course Tuvix wasn't a hostile. He didn't threaten to kill anyone or blow up the ship if they try to decompile him. He really could have tried to take his own life, claiming "if you can't let me have my life, then Neelix and Tuvok will be dead too!" But he didn't. He did submit.
Remember this -- Tuvix was in a very, very peculiar psychological state. I don't think anybody in that form could rationally address the situation. And he panicked. I think the Neelix side of him came through (we have seen him get highly panicked and hysterical in various episodes). If it were up to the Tuvok side alone, I think he'd submit willingly. "It's only logical. Two men for the price of one."
Neelix and Tuvok were essentially "dead"... if you just think of their memory engrams living on in Tuvix. But not permanently dead. In a form of "stasis", hidden within Tuvix. So, it was the overriding priority for Janeway to bring them back. They deserved it, even more so than Tuvix trying to live on in his extremely peculiar form. Because there is also the obligation to relatives of both sides too. Can't forget that. So Janeway made the right decision in my book.
If I were Janeway, I'd have had Tuvix put in stasis... even before he had the chance to think of a name. Why? Because the more time existing as this combined person, the more he makes a realization of a unique self. Give the doctor some time to explore the possibilities of a cure, even though they seemed incredibly remote. He DID find an answer after all and it worked. Of course, having Tuvix in stasis would remove the core plot device of the episode.
Now, if we remove the stasis option, I think Janeway should have addressed the situation right upfront, rather than "running away" from it (she seemed to have an aversion to handling Tuvix at first). I think it would have been best to make a pact right up front. Get the Tuvix being to resign himself to "decompilation" if a plausible solution is discovered. Get that rooted in his head from the get-go. Because it wasn't until he began to function as Tuvix for a week or so that he began to appreciate his "blended life." Then, life became precious to him... and he didn't want to give it up. Had he formally acknowledged that he'd comply with facing a solution to restore Neelix and Tuvok, then he'd not have let himself stray too far, imagining his ongoing life (he did explore a number of future possibilities).
Are two lives more important than one? Well, let's put it this way -- if Neelix and Tuvok were taken away in a different manner, let's say kidnapped by some aliens who had no interest in hostage negotiation and would even deny having captured them. Janeway would have to deploy an armed team to search for them. Would they kill some aliens in order to rescue them? Well, they'd try not to, but what if stunning aliens horribly damaged or killed them? Would they still "do what it takes" to get her crew members back? I think she would.
Now of course Tuvix wasn't a hostile. He didn't threaten to kill anyone or blow up the ship if they try to decompile him. He really could have tried to take his own life, claiming "if you can't let me have my life, then Neelix and Tuvok will be dead too!" But he didn't. He did submit.
Remember this -- Tuvix was in a very, very peculiar psychological state. I don't think anybody in that form could rationally address the situation. And he panicked. I think the Neelix side of him came through (we have seen him get highly panicked and hysterical in various episodes). If it were up to the Tuvok side alone, I think he'd submit willingly. "It's only logical. Two men for the price of one."
Neelix and Tuvok were essentially "dead"... if you just think of their memory engrams living on in Tuvix. But not permanently dead. In a form of "stasis", hidden within Tuvix. So, it was the overriding priority for Janeway to bring them back. They deserved it, even more so than Tuvix trying to live on in his extremely peculiar form. Because there is also the obligation to relatives of both sides too. Can't forget that. So Janeway made the right decision in my book.
Tuvix was an abomination of spare parts that weren't his. Two humanoids and bit of plant matter thrown in. He was driving around in someone else's bodies. You know Janeway did him a favor removing the plant stuff. It just so happened Tuvok and Neelix were restored and Tuvix didn't make it next transporter 'accident'.
It was the better if not right thing taking away Tuvix's keys. He had no rights. His sentience was a hybrid of life forms not born from life but a technical glitch that required two other actual lives to be sacrificed. He was holding Tuvok and Neelix hostage with his presence, so I agree with the comment above that his psychological state was scrambled.
It was the better if not right thing taking away Tuvix's keys. He had no rights. His sentience was a hybrid of life forms not born from life but a technical glitch that required two other actual lives to be sacrificed. He was holding Tuvok and Neelix hostage with his presence, so I agree with the comment above that his psychological state was scrambled.
Tuvix was a transporter accident that got fixed.
Wow, the lack of compassion expressed by some folks in this thread... But I guess Data was just a collection of parts and The Doctor was just a trick of light as well.
Seriously...because I don't think I've ever seen people satisfactorily discuss this:
What would it have taken for you to be convinced that Tuvix had a right to exist?
At what point does The Doctor's inability to find a cure give Tuvix the right to exist? If Voyager is out there for a decade with Tuvix still around and The Doctor suddenly finding a cure, are Tuvix's rights instantly nullfied?
All that said, I agree with most of Gary7's premises: Janeway didn't handle the situation well from the get-go and likely contributed to Tuvix coming to believe he might be given the same amount of dignity and rights as any other crewmember.
I still think it would have been ballsy and poetic justice, though obviously was never going to happen, if Janeway's forced dissolution of Tuvix had killed all three of them (four if you want to count the plant).
Seriously...because I don't think I've ever seen people satisfactorily discuss this:
What would it have taken for you to be convinced that Tuvix had a right to exist?
At what point does The Doctor's inability to find a cure give Tuvix the right to exist? If Voyager is out there for a decade with Tuvix still around and The Doctor suddenly finding a cure, are Tuvix's rights instantly nullfied?
All that said, I agree with most of Gary7's premises: Janeway didn't handle the situation well from the get-go and likely contributed to Tuvix coming to believe he might be given the same amount of dignity and rights as any other crewmember.
I still think it would have been ballsy and poetic justice, though obviously was never going to happen, if Janeway's forced dissolution of Tuvix had killed all three of them (four if you want to count the plant).
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Imagine you have two children. Both fall into a coma. Do you harvest their parts to sustain another? Take his blood, take his kidney, sure go for it. Take it all. Now you have a choice to save both your kids from their coma by taking back the kidney and blood.
It is not even that scenario with Janeway because Tuvix was akin to something created in a transporter petri dish. Janeway made the decision only when the doctor found a cure, not her timing. In fact didn't they think they were stuck with Tuvix?
It is not even that scenario with Janeway because Tuvix was akin to something created in a transporter petri dish. Janeway made the decision only when the doctor found a cure, not her timing. In fact didn't they think they were stuck with Tuvix?
Also. Tuvix was creepy.
By that logic there are a whole lot of people who should be killed.
Indeed, trekbbs would be decimated.
If they thought they were stuck with Tuvix then why was The Doc even researching the matter? It strikes me as cruel and unusual to tell a sentient being "You have a right to exist and we'll treat you as one of us...well, unless we figure out a way to kill you, and then it's sayonara!" Either tell Tuvix upfront that you're planning to do everything possible to end his life, or tell him that he's going to be treated as a person and that even if they did somehow find a way to restore Tuvok and Neelix, they wouldn't do so if it meant killing him in the process. Or, as noted above, put him in stasis until you decide which way you're willing to jump.
I don't really think the coma analogy works, but I'll try this: if I had two kids who were in a car accident, and I was told they were dead, then I would have no objection to their organs being harvested to save a third kid. If I was suddenly told that I could bring back the first two kids if I was willing to kill the third? I would be furious. I would likely have one hell of a lawsuit. But I sure as hell wouldn't go all "needs of the many" on my third kid and tell him "hey, tough luck...but two heads are better than one!"
If I was told they were in a coma? I'd want to do a hell of a lot of research to find out the likelihood that they might recover, and I would wrack my soul about it, and I would feel like an asshole regardless of which decision I made...but the longer the kids were in a coma, the easier it would be for me to say that it was time to move on.
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