Did Janeway Kill Tuvix?
- Thread starter Chief Medical Officer
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I think she'd have let the whole thing slide if Kes hadn't emotionally blackmailed her into separating them. I do wonder if she'd have done it if it was Carey and Kim.
No, it follows that Tuvix WAS Tuvok and Neelix. Before I accept any of these arguments, I first have to believe that Tuvix was more than just Tuvok and Neelix trying to make sense of the world. So far I've heard nothing to compel me to change my mind.
I used to believe that Janeway did destroy a sapient being but that it wasn't murder because the component parts of what made him continued to exist. Over the years, I've changed my mind and don't acknowledge that Tuvix was a "unique" sapient being. He was Tuvok and Neelix battling to communicate through one voice.
Imagine if you were fused with someone. How would you express your thoughts and desires (when the other person is trying to do exactly the same thing)? Would the single voice represent you, him or would it combine to create what sounds like a third voice but what is in fact, two voices being made coherent by one vessel?
Reminds me of the creepy story of Edward Mordrake who apparently had a vestigial face on the back of his head. No-one ever heard it speak but Mordrake claimed that it whispered to him at night. He understandably killed himself.
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Kes didn't "blackmail" anyone. Tuvix was the one who forced himself on Kes and tried to force her to persuade Janeway not to do the separation. Kes's reaction was just the logic response to that.
And yes, I do think that Janeway had done the same thing if it had been, let's say Tal Celes and Samantha Wildman who would have been victims of a transport malfunction and turned into "Talman".
I wouldn't go so far as to call it emotional blackmail, but I do think Kes's purely emotional appeal was manipulative and rather unworthy of her, especially given she was serving in the medical profession at the time...though perhaps she wasn't supposed to learn the Hippocratic Oath until Tuesday?
Then we come bacsically come back to this ruling from Data's hearing in "Measure of a Man". The highlighted area is the key part, just as in that case you can't really prove nor idsprove tha Tuvix has a unique soul but he deserves the right to explore that question for himself.
It sits there looking at me, and I don't know what it is. This case has dealt with metaphysics, with questions best left to saints and philosophers. I'm neither competent nor qualified to answer those. I've got to make a ruling, to try to speak to the future. Is Data a machine? Yes. Is he the property of Starfleet? No. We have all been dancing around the basic issue. Does Data have a soul? I don't know that he has. I don't know that I have. But I have got to give him the freedom to explore that question himself. It is the ruling of this court that Lieutenant Commander Data has the freedom to choose.
But if it was two seperate voices and they both wanted the same thing seperation, surely this third voice which is a combination of the two would want seperation. AS Tuvix didn't want to undergo the procedure then that wasn't the case.
Yeah, I've already said on this thread and others, I wouldn't have had a problem with Janeway letting him explore whether or not he had a soul. If I'm right (and I am) then I think this time would have allowed Tuvok and Neelix to learn how to express their desires through Tuvix more effectively.
But it should also be noted that letting Data explore this question didn't have a detrimental effect on others. Letting Tuvix explore it did so I understand why Janeway nipped that option in the bud.
But you need to explore the possibility that two minds battling to express themselves through one voice will lead to a confused message. The mind is a complicated thing at the best of times (see Stockholm syndrome for example) so two minds trapped like this would understandably express themselves in a contradictory manner. Plus there may have been aspects of a shared existence that they did actually enjoy, albeit not to the extent that they wanted it to be permanent.
Put these facts together and when Janeway says she's going to separate him, what happens?. Tuvok reacts with logic, Neelix reacts with emotion. How might this be expressed by Tuvix? Perhaps as a fear of the unknown. A fear of death.
Tuvix could have shat a Katra and put it in anyone.
Season two onward, (a copy of) Tuvix was quietly living his life as unnamed crewman Y and no one noticed or gave a damn.
Season two onward, (a copy of) Tuvix was quietly living his life as unnamed crewman Y and no one noticed or gave a damn.
T'Girl. Dropping in here since you either didn't read the PM or are ignoring it.
Drop the graphic that you include with each post. That's not permitted. The avatar is sufficient for art needs.
Post to let me know that you read this. Thank you.
Sorry for the intrusion others. But since I'm here...as much as I liked Tuvix, not at the expense of the two who made him.
If Voyager was running low on food.
There wasn't enough to go around.
So they had a popularity contest.
The loser of the popularity contest starves to death slowly.
There wasn't enough to go around.
So they had a popularity contest.
The loser of the popularity contest starves to death slowly.
Janeway fixed a transporter malfunction.
Yes it's sad for poor, sweet Tuvix that he was a transporter malfunction but just as he claimed Tuvok and Neelix were still living inside him they could equally claim that their hideous chimera was still living inside them as individuals once they were restored.
Yes it's sad for poor, sweet Tuvix that he was a transporter malfunction but just as he claimed Tuvok and Neelix were still living inside him they could equally claim that their hideous chimera was still living inside them as individuals once they were restored.
The transporter is constantly curing/screening her crew of STDs they pick up from passing sexy aliens.
If maintaining the purity of her crew was such a big ticket item for this lady, then she should be going door to door and reinfecting every crewman and crewwoman on Voyager with the (Space) clap destiny and righteousness insists they deserve.
If maintaining the purity of her crew was such a big ticket item for this lady, then she should be going door to door and reinfecting every crewman and crewwoman on Voyager with the (Space) clap destiny and righteousness insists they deserve.
They don't have unions in the 24th century. Everyone's work conditions are wonderful.
No one's actually working.
They're all hobbyists.
Even when they're sent to jail, it's just more playtime.
They're all hobbyists.
Even when they're sent to jail, it's just more playtime.
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