Did Harve Bennett like Star Trek VI?

[Maurice]

Wait wait wait.

Having read many of the production memos I can tell you that one cannot safely assume that the line producer or writer of a given episode created all these things. Suggestions came from all over the place during rewrites; from Fontana, from Justman, and many from Roddenberry. In fact, a lot of the latter's memos are REALLY good, and he made many terrific points which improved the scripts and changed details. Coon did, too, to the scripts of others. How can someone claim Coon "created" Khan, when Carey Wilber's story included a superman (later to be renamed Khan)? To assign Coon all these "created bys" is as inaccurate as many of Roddenberry's later claims.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I know it's trendy to bash Roddenberry, (just like some Star Wars fans bash Lucas and some Bond fans bash Fleming), but let's not lose sight of logic here.

No Roddenberry=No Trek.

Period.

Sorry, but I'm not a fan of "creator bashing".

I don't think it's "bashing" Roddenberry to acknowledge that he was not solely responsible for what made Trek good.

And honestly, my estimation of Roddenberry as a person has been severely lowered by his:

1) Constant credit-hogging for others' accomplishments and contributions. (DC Fontana should have a co-creator credit on TNG, as she co-wrote the pilot. David Gerrold and Robert Justman also made many suggestions for the new show, and Gerrold even wrote the series bible, IIRC)

2) Outright lying to build up his own myth (like NBC not wanting to have a diverse cast or a female first officer - they were in favor of BOTH of those things) and continuing to tell his lies even after he was publicly called out on them ("He had my Scotty dealing drugs!")

3) His often-mediocre writing efforts ("The Omega Glory" was written as one of three possible pilot choices, but Samuel L. Peeples wrote the stronger script. Roddenberry's was ultimately made into a so-so episode at the end of season 2. Harold Livingston also tells stories of how GR would rewrite his pages on TMP, often for the worse, just to put his stamp on it.)

Roddenberry was generally acknowledged as being a stronger re-writer than a writer. Sure, he was the creator of ST, but other folks kept the show running and made massive contributions along the way.

4) And, if you even want to get into their personal lives, you can compare GR's many affairs in both of his marriages, and contrast them with how torn up Gene Coon was when he fell in love with an old flame. Coon decided to ask his wife for a divorce so that he could marry his childhood sweetheart but still felt enormously guilty about it & gave his wife most everything in the divorce, IIRC.

So when it comes to deciding which Gene to look up to, I don't have to think too hard.

Which begs the question: Did Roddenberry come up with IDIC? Or just the medallion?

Roddenberry came up with "Hey, if I feature this IDIC medallion on the show, I can start selling it through my company, Lincoln Enterprises, and make some more money out of this Trek show before it's cancelled."

Oh, and I assume you've heard the story about how GR wrote never-used lyrics for the ST theme years after the fact just so he could claim co-writer credit and screw Alexander Courage out of half of his royalties? Yep, Roddenberry loved to espouse his "philosophy" to Trek fans, but when it came to living up to his ideals, he often came up very short.

 

[Amaris]

I love Gene Roddenberry, but I still believe they're talking about him during the launch prep scene in Star Trek: First Contact.

That said, Gene Roddenberry was a smart man, but the smartest thing he ever did was surround himself with such talented people. That is why the show worked.

 

[Lance]

Despite all the events surrounding the first season of TNG, Gene himself seemed to acknowledge this. The first thing he did when Paramount handed him the keys to the TV franchise again in 1986 was call up a bunch of old TOS stalwarts and invite them back to help him start up the new show. He recognised how important their input really was, even though "publically" he never acknowledged it in perhaps the way that he maybe should have.

A lot of Gene's thinking at this time was being poisoned by his lawyer, though.

 

[EnriqueH]

I know it's trendy to bash Roddenberry, (just like some Star Wars fans bash Lucas and some Bond fans bash Fleming), but let's not lose sight of logic here.

No Roddenberry=No Trek.

Period.

Sorry, but I'm not a fan of "creator bashing".

I don't think it's "bashing" Roddenberry to acknowledge that he was not solely responsible for what made Trek good.

And honestly, my estimation of Roddenberry as a person has been severely lowered by his:

1) Constant credit-hogging for others' accomplishments and contributions. (DC Fontana should have a co-creator credit on TNG, as she co-wrote the pilot. David Gerrold and Robert Justman also made many suggestions for the new show, and Gerrold even wrote the series bible, IIRC)

2) Outright lying to build up his own myth (like NBC not wanting to have a diverse cast or a female first officer - they were in favor of BOTH of those things) and continuing to tell his lies even after he was publicly called out on them ("He had my Scotty dealing drugs!")

3) His often-mediocre writing efforts ("The Omega Glory" was written as one of three possible pilot choices, but Samuel L. Peeples wrote the stronger script. Roddenberry's was ultimately made into a so-so episode at the end of season 2. Harold Livingston also tells stories of how GR would rewrite his pages on TMP, often for the worse, just to put his stamp on it.)

Roddenberry was generally acknowledged as being a stronger re-writer than a writer. Sure, he was the creator of ST, but other folks kept the show running and made massive contributions along the way.

4) And, if you even want to get into their personal lives, you can compare GR's many affairs in both of his marriages, and contrast them with how torn up Gene Coon was when he fell in love with an old flame. Coon decided to ask his wife for a divorce so that he could marry his childhood sweetheart but still felt enormously guilty about it & gave his wife most everything in the divorce, IIRC.

So when it comes to deciding which Gene to look up to, I don't have to think too hard.

Which begs the question: Did Roddenberry come up with IDIC? Or just the medallion?

Roddenberry came up with "Hey, if I feature this IDIC medallion on the show, I can start selling it through my company, Lincoln Enterprises, and make some more money out of this Trek show before it's cancelled."

Oh, and I assume you've heard the story about how GR wrote never-used lyrics for the ST theme years after the fact just so he could claim co-writer credit and screw Alexander Courage out of half of his royalties? Yep, Roddenberry loved to espouse his "philosophy" to Trek fans, but when it came to living up to his ideals, he often came up very short.

Oh, I'm perfectly aware of Gene's shortcomings.

However, I stop short at his personal life and his affairs because I know Gene has said he didn't make any such oath to Majel at their wedding. And we don't know if Majel was ok with it. I have met women who have told me about their man, "I don't care what he does during the day as long as he's in bed with me at night." If Gene and Majel were ok with that arrangement, who are we to criticize it?

As far as Gene taking credit, I'm willing to accept that at face value, but I'm curious to see the sources for some of these because---to be honest---almost every interview with Gene I've seen recently DOES include a part of the interview where he DOES give credit. I heard some long-lost interview on Youtube, and the journalist asked Gene about Klingons, I believe, and Gene R said that another writer came up with that. So while I accept some people's version that Gene took credit for stuff that he didn't deserve credit for, I haven't seen/heard/read any evidence of it.

Also, I'm well aware that Gene created the IDIC symbol to cash in, but that wasn't my question.

My question is: Did he come up with the concept?

 

[CoveTom]

Also, I'm well aware that Gene created the IDIC symbol to cash in, but that wasn't my question.

My question is: Did he come up with the concept?

My understanding is that yes, he did. According to Leonard Nimoy, he (meaning Nimoy) had some issues with that particular scene in the transporter room as it was originally written. He felt it was too talky and didn't really go anywhere. He voiced his concerns to Roddenberry, who seemed to agree.

Some time later, Roddenberry came back with a revised script, which he himself had re-written, and the scene had been changed to include the IDIC medallion, and the explanation of same.

It was clearly a marketing ploy to sell some merchandise, yes, but it appears that Roddenberry also wrote the explanation of what it means as well.

 

[EnriqueH]

Ok, yes. Thanks.

I know Gene wrote a scene involving the inclusion of the medallion to market it, but I wasn't sure if the concept behind it was Gene's too.

I know he did it to cash in, but it was a cool concept at the very heart of what Star Trek is about.

 

[Amaris]

Despite all the events surrounding the first season of TNG, Gene himself seemed to acknowledge this. The first thing he did when Paramount handed him the keys to the TV franchise again in 1986 was call up a bunch of old TOS stalwarts and invite them back to help him start up the new show. He recognised how important their input really was, even though "publically" he never acknowledged it in perhaps the way that he maybe should have.

A lot of Gene's thinking at this time was being poisoned by his lawyer, though.

Agreed. Having watched a number of documentaries, and read many books on the whole thing, it seems Leonard Maizlish became far more influential than he should have, and it pushed good people away.

As I said before, I love Gene, but it was the people around him who took his charisma and ability, and focused it to achieve the best possible results, and it worked. I'm actually glad Gene had picked Rick Berman, because Berman did an excellent job for many years, looking over Gene's legacy, and still making solid Star Trek.

I think he burned out later on, but one can only do something for so long before experiencing burnout. Still, he was yet one more talented person that Gene had chosen so wisely to oversee things, and it worked even after Gene was gone.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

If Gene and Majel were ok with that arrangement, who are we to criticize it?

Because we live in a culture that accepted certain tenets of what the treatment between spouses was supposed to be, hence the reason many found fault in GR's adulterous behavior in the first place. That did not come out of thin air.

Character does matter, and his abuse of marriage--self serving in the extreme--is a behavior pattern with distinct parallels in his mistreatment of his co-creators/talent by claiming he was the mastermind behind more than what was ever true, even in the way he tried to graft himself to actors who were largely independent in the development of their characters. That is the GR I witnessed at conventions in the 70s, and certainly in the libraries full of printed interviews with the man.

You might not like criticizing creators, but that title does not absolve him of despicable behavior seen or corroborated by those around him in his life.

He's like another 1960's "icon" in the form of car customizer George Barris, who appropriated famous work designed and built by others (ex. the Green Hornet's Black Beauty & Monkeemobile--both designed by Dean Jeffries) as the products of his "genius" and continues to do so, in one way or another, to this day. Such moral bankruptcy should be exposed, along with a duty by researchers / historians to present the accurate account of events.

 

[mb22]

If Gene and Majel were ok with that arrangement, who are we to criticize it?

If my memory of Susan Sackett's memoir Inside Trek is correct, Majel had Sackett taken away from Lincoln Enterprises to keep her away from Gene.

 

[Maurice]

Got a page number?

 

[EnriqueH]

In Beyond Uhura, Nichols talks about Majel having a sense of humor about the whole thing.

Because we live in a culture that accepted certain tenets of what the treatment between spouses was supposed to be, hence the reason many found fault in GR's adulterous behavior in the first place. That did not come out of thin air.

Yeah, but who says that what's good for us is good for everyone else?

IDIC, ol' buddy, IDIC.

 

[Botany Bay]

Got a page number?

Only have it on Kindle so no pages, but it's in "Log Entry 11" :

"Altogether, I did twelve issues, through the end of 1977, by which time Majel was aware of my relationship with Gene and decided to pull me off the project, substituting a friend of hers as editor."

 

[Maurice]

Danke. I forgot which book we were talking about. LOL Is it any good? Anything revelatory about the behind the scenes stuff (and not dalliances and affairs per se)?

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Danke. I forgot which book we were talking about. LOL Is it any good? Anything revelatory about the behind the scenes stuff (and not dalliances and affairs per se)?

I remember flipping through the book (never bought it), and it seemed to me that talking about the dalliances & affairs were pretty much the only reason the book existed.

 

[Lance]

Hmm, fascinating to hear this about Susan Sackett, never knew that before (knowing GR's reputation it doesn't surprise me).

I does add an extra frisson to TNG: "Menage a Troi", which Sackett scripted (and Majel guest starred in). Always wondered if the Bird himself ever had input into that script, despite obviously never having taken a screen credit on it...

 

[mb22]

I remember flipping through the book (never bought it), and it seemed to me that talking about the dalliances & affairs were pretty much the only reason the book existed.

Again, I haven't read the book in a year (and don't have it on hand), but I do recall it gives her point of view about various Trek productions up to Roddenberry's death. Richard Arnold, Leonard Maizlish, Gene's children, and others make appearances as well.

http://www.insidetrek.com/Inside-Trek-Book

http://www.amazon.com/Inside-Trek-S...&qid=1421261531&sr=8-5&keywords=susan+sackett

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I'm sure there's some interesting information in there, but I couldn't get past the fact that the book was being marketed on the salacious aspects ("I was Gene Roddenberry's secret lover!!!"). I also have bad memories of Susan Sackett's writing from an old Starlog column she wrote about being an extra on ST:TMP where she spent 90% of it just bitching about how boring being an extra was.

So I think it's safe to say that I'm not the ideal audience for her book.

 

[Botany Bay]

Danke. I forgot which book we were talking about. LOL Is it any good? Anything revelatory about the behind the scenes stuff (and not dalliances and affairs per se)?

I think you will enjoy it, at least in part, because it covers what Roddenberry worked on in the 70's -- mainly working in an office with Susan Sackett at Paramount doing through endless rewrites attempting to get TMP underway. If you're like me you'll end up frustrated reading about all the scripts, books, and other projects Roddenberry was involved in during this period, but he was seemingly unable to muster the discipline to finish any of them.

Yes, there is plenty of tell-all stuff about their 20 year long affair. Sure we only get Sackett's side of it, but I ended up feeling sorry for her by the end of it.

I think it's a pretty sad story all round really -- nobody is a winner. Sackett was obviously devoted to Roddenberry, as was Barrett. None of the three come across as particularly happy. It's not an overly long book, but it fills in a few blanks about the history of Trek in the 70's. From memory the e-book is pretty cheap.

 

[EnriqueH]

I read the book earlier in 2014, and even exchanged some emails with Susan Sackett herself.

She was very nice to me, actually.

I enjoyed the book and thought it gave some interesting insight into Roddenberry, but my reaction was the same as Botany Bay: I ended feeling horrible for her by the end.

Gene's lawyer, Leonard Maizlish, must've been a pretty nasty individual. I've never read a single positive thing about the man.

Not one positive word in any of the books I've read.