Did DS9 falter ratings-wise due to a strange concept?

[DeepSpaceWine]

Not sure why it matters that the ratings dropped - the ratings stayed high enough to be renewed for a full seven seasons.

Ultimately, yeah, but the underlying question behind the question is why did so many viewers just stop tuning into DS9? DS9 ran so long without any peril because it was the #2/#1/#2/#3/#1 show in syndication over its run and the actors (minus Farrell) could be signed back easily. Voyager was the #1, then #2 rated show on UPN (always #1 in scripted television, though I laugh at saying that because wrestling is so obviously scripted). And if it were in synd., Voyager would've had good enough numbers to air all 7 seasons, though there was a brief issue with contract extension negotiations with Mulgrew after Season 5 (same with Stewart after Season 3). Voyager had a contrast with DS9. It looks like Ryan wanted to be on Boston Public/the show wanted her, but she finished Voyager's 7th season instead of hopping over to Boston Public, unlike Farrell, who was supposedly asking for as much pay as Brooks was getting for Season 7.

Sorbo wanting to leave/refusing negotiations is what ended Hercules, not ratings. Xena, it was a combo of increasing production costs/declining ratings, some staff burnout and the syndication market beginning to implode. The 2000-01 season was the worst year for ad revenue for tv stations in 50 years. Not sure if any year since then topped it. After that season, for other reasons importantly too, the whole first-run syndication market just disintegrated.

 

[Worf'sParmach]

Ultimately, yeah, but the underlying question behind the question is why did so many viewers just stop tuning into DS9? DS9 ran so long without any peril because it was the #2/#1/#2/#3/#1 show in syndication over its run and the actors (minus Farrell) could be signed back easily.

From looking at your (rather extensive) data, it doesn't look like viewers stopped watching DS9 per se, but that they stopped watching syndicated first-run TV as a whole.

Makes me wonder if TNG would have still been a ratings powerhouse had it aired during the late 90s like DS9 and VOY did.

 

[DeepSpaceWine]

From looking at your (rather extensive) data, it doesn't look like viewers stopped watching DS9 per se, but that they stopped watching syndicated first-run TV as a whole.

Yeah, Hercules & Xena really started to plummet when they started shifting to overnight schedules. DS9, from all my efforts to pin down times and time changes for series, didn't seem to air overnight usually. B5, late-Herc & Xena, EFC, and sometimes Voyager got that treatment. No one but Nielsen and the studios have this data, but I wonder what their ratings were composed of. Was it a case of:
* normal-time markets having about the same ratings as earlier seasons + overnight markets having decimated ratings= lower ratings
or...
* normal-time markets having declining ratings but overnight markets didn't go as low as they might seem due to a portion of their fanbase recording it for later viewing.
Going to late night/overnight hours basically prevented these series from getting any new viewers, drove away any casual viewers and the fans would have to use VCRs to catch it (or be night owls).


Anyone know if Nielsen counted times the tv was off but the VCR was recording? Been so long, I think the cable box would have to be on at least, though over-the-air viewers would need the tv on.

Makes me wonder if TNG would have still been a ratings powerhouse had it aired during the late 90s like DS9 and VOY did.

Probably not, though a lot of that syndication boom (the dramas/action shows at least) was fueled by TNG. Baywatch premiered in 1989, but didn't enter syndication til 1991 (1 season on NBC, 1 season off the air before it entered syndication). I'd imagine if there was no TNG, Star Trek: TNG might've been the flagship for UPN! Of course, coming 8 seasons later, who knows who would have been in each role. Tim Russ could've been Geordi.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Space opera doesn't depend on syndication to survive - nuBSG did very well by Skiffy standards. There's no reason why we couldn't have another show like DS9 on today, but it would need to be on cable.

If it were on HBO or Showtime, DS9 would probably be too normal and vanilla for their tastes.

Cable TV has definitely raised the bar on TV series now. Cursing, graphic sex and violence.

Plus, an established (and popular) character could be killed off unexpectedly in any episode.

The "old formula" would be going up against this. If it tries to keep the same cliches, the fans will get bored/disappointed quickly.

I think that's what happened with the last couple TNG movies, and trek shows.

 

[DeepSpaceWine]

I just realized something. While I don't have the info pre-95 (except for DS9), at least from early 1995 onward (... this might throw DS9 fans who whine about DS9 being less popular/watched than Voyager for a loop), DS9 had more viewers in the US than Baywatch! Yep, more people watched The Sisko than watched The Hoff, more people watched Dax than watched Pamela Anderson. If I can dig up Baywatch ratings pre-95, I can see if DS9 beat it the entire time.

It's quite weird the longer you think about it.

 

[DeepSpaceWine]

Here, I've decided to add something handy, a list of all Star Trek seasons (except TOS since there's no data going that far back) and their average rating for all new episodes that season arranged from highest rated to lowest rated.

For seasons with (#; #), the 1st number is counting the series premiere as 1 broadcast, the 2nd number is counting the series premiere as 2 episodes. Likewise with series finales.

1st- TNG Season 6 (12.66)
2nd- TNG Season 5 (12.50) [missing data for 2 new eps]
3rd- TNG Season 7 (12.12; 12.33) [missing data for 1 new ep]
4th- TNG Season 4 (11.32) [missing data for 1 new ep]
5th- DS9 Season 1 (11.15; 11.53) [w/o "Emissary", the avg. is 10.72]
6th- TNG Season 1 (10.71; 10.90) [w/o "Encounter at Farpoint", the avg. is 10.50]
7th- TNG Season 3 (10.41) [missing data for 2 new eps]
8th- TNG Season 2 (10.16) [missing data for 2 new eps]
9th- DS9 Season 2 (8.76)
10th- DS9 Season 3 (7.67)
11th- VOY Season 1 (7.65; 7.99) [w/o "Caretaker", the avg. is 7.27]
12th- DS9 Season 4 (6.61)
13th- DS9 Season 5 (5.76) [missing data for 3 new eps]
14th- VOY Season 2 (5.68)
15th- DS9 Season 6 (4.96)
16th- VOY Season 3 (4.78)
17th- DS9 Season 7 (4.37; 4.41)
18th- VOY Season 4 (4.31)
19th- ENT Season 1 (4.03; 4.14) [w/o "Broken Bow", avg. is 3.90]
20th- VOY Season 5 (3.66)
21st- VOY Season 6 (3.56)
22nd- VOY Season 7 (3.34; 3.42)
23rd- ENT Season 2 (2.89)
24th- ENT Season 3 (2.51)
25th- ENT Season 4 (1.90)

 

[DeepSpaceWine]

I'm surprised. I actually found the ratings for the Voyager rerun that aired the day after 9/11 ("Renaissance Man"). Surprisingly, it was a 2.0. Some context- 2.0 was the highest rating since "Endgame" and the 2nd highest rating of Summer 2001/September ("Endgame" rerun the highest). By my count, 52 reruns had ratings under 2.0 and 1 new episode ("Juggernaut"). Only 53rd/54th lowest in what was one of the worst weeks to be airing anything. About the only other comparable times were if anything aired Friday 11/22/63 or the next day or two (things didn't) or airing against the live moon landing footage 7/20/69. It would be out of 375 broadcasts (dividing 2-hour events into 2 separate hours, noting pre-emptions and special airings on other nights) if my math's correct.

So, I now have ratings data for every single broadcast of Voyager (every broadcast that counts, i.e. not the secondary rerun timeslot on weekends).

Voyager's lowest ever rating? There's one and a second that get's honorable mention.
Lowest: "Nightingale" rerun (0.8)
2nd Lowest: "Repression" 2nd rerun (0.9)
They deserve mention together because they both aired the same night, 7/4/01. That's far below the next lowest ratings that summer (one 1.1, one 1.2) and far below the average for all reruns after "Endgame", 1.45. The date, the Fourth of July, indicates why. It aired as many fireworks shows would be starting or at when people would have to be heading out to get a spot to catch them. "Repression" aired 1st 8/7PM, then "Nightingale" at 9/8PM.

No other VOY eps aired on the Fourth of July. Voyager did get crappy for reruns (at the time) ratings for Christmas Eve & New Years Eve 1997, Christmas 1996 (New Years night 1997 wasn't bad at all).


Let's see, if anything I say probably can't be found gets contradicted... then:
I'll never find complete E:FC ratings
I'll never fill in the gaps in DS9's, Hercules & Xena's ratings
I'll never find complete Baywatch & VIP ratings info
I'll never find TNG rerun ratings (and missing episodes) from before 1992
I'll never find complete Babylon 5 ratings.

 

[HaventGotALife]

DS9's concept it seems was based on intrigue rather than exploration. Is this why it faltered in terms of ratings? The essential setting laid out in Emissary was the protection/incorporation of Bajor, keeping the Cardassians at bay, and the new frontier of the Gamma Quadrant.

People talk about competition, but the X-Files was huge, and probably the biggest sci-fi show of the 1990s. Shows like Hercules, Xena, etc. were not direct competitors anyhow (well to me fantasy and sci-fi are distinct genres). It's like blaming low ratings on Two and a Half Men due to competition from The Big Bang Theory (yes, both sitcoms, but one lampoons sex whilst the other lampoons nerds).

I don't care if it was popular or not. It has aged well and I enjoy the show on DVD. Whether it was appreciated in its time, doesn't bother me. TNG made Star Trek have unreasonable expectations, I think. On the whole, DS9 got average ratings for a Star Trek syndication television show.

 

[Phily B]

Speaking of ratings, they were dropping in general at that point. Someone mentioned wrestling earlier in this topic, and the ratings drop off compared to around the time TNG finished/DS9 started have been massive, but the PPV buys are as big as they have ever been.

 

[Paradon]

i think the rating was dropping because they've been telling the same story over and over and over and over again and they fail to write something that people can relate to. DS9 had some pretty good story telling, but I think they've could have done better still. They need to write something that people could understand better like about life in general and how everything is tie to it. [chuckle] People say...nah that's boring and crap like that, but you'd be surprise how interesting and enlightening it can be once you start exploring spirituality and the way people think.

 

[JustKate]

It would have been nice if the show had been more popular just because it's nice to have one's own choices validated, but...

The show ran seven seasons, which is about as much as a person can reasonably expect. So what exactly would have been achieved if it had been more popular?