Did any of Trek '09's backstory happen to the TOS characters?

[Timo]

Because Sulu was in his right mind in that scene, and Chekov clearly wasn't.

I wouldn't really bet on that. Chekov has always been an impressionable hothead, Sulu has maintained his cool even under pressure and mental duress, and the effects of this * entity (love the novelverse abbreviation!) were subtle - McCoy didn't go stark raving mad, he merely started using Nazi arguments against Kirk's more reconciliatory tones.

If your takeaway from those exchanges was that Chekov actually had a brother, you're misunderstanding the episode.

Just reinterpreting it, and IMHO in the more logical fashion. Kirk clearly doesn't know the first thing about Chekov's family; he's relying completely on Sulu's account. So his "testimony" doesn't count for anything at all. Sulu's statements would be in line with what * does to people: it doesn't just make individuals go berserk, it makes individuals create strife in their environs. And Sulu insisting that Chekov is mad is effective in creating strife that draws Kirk into the fight despite him having been resilient so far.

Indeed, Marta was fully sentient, albeit mentally disturbed.

...But was she Orion?

Hers is the only case of the green paint actually visibly rubbing off, when she tries to kill/secude/both Kirk. Her insanity might well be defined as her believing she is an Orion animal woman, and painting herself accordingly!

The one possibility remaining after all is said and done is that Orions market their female slaves (coming from the naturally green Orion species) as "animal women", either because that sells, or because any woman thus marketed is rendered "animal" somehow. Whether this entails removal of sentience, in which case the puppet masters of the ENT episode were pre-animalized, or some other procedure we have yet to be told of, the opportunity for interesting interpretations still remains.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Even if "Enterprise" is not aken into account, even the original series depicted a green Orion woman who not only spoke, but even quoted Shakespeare (though she claimed the prose was her creation), Marta (as portrayed by Yvonne Craig) from "Whom Gods Destroy". Okay, so she was supposedly "insane", hence being a patient at the Elba II facility, but never the less she appeared quite sapient.

Sincerely,

Bill

Trying so hard to invalidate ENT that he ignored TOS too?

Byrne probably forgot about or was discounting that episode, yes, as he's said many times that he's not a fan of TOS's third season & doesn't rewatch it much.

What can I say, the man has good taste.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Because Sulu was in his right mind in that scene, and Chekov clearly wasn't.

I wouldn't really bet on that. Chekov has always been an impressionable hothead, Sulu has maintained his cool even under pressure and mental duress...

Oh, sure.

If your takeaway from those exchanges was that Chekov actually had a brother, you're misunderstanding the episode.

Just reinterpreting it, and IMHO in the more logical fashion.

You're "reinterpreting" it in the complete opposite way that the writer obviously intended. HIGHLY illogical.

 

[Timo]

Well, the writers intended for the ending of "Omega Glory" to be patriotically arousing. They failed - only foreigners seem to be capable of putting in a good word for it.

I don't think writer intent should really count for much. Writers come and go, and even after the current batch is long retired, somebody will continue to make money on reruns of what they wrote. If Chekov's kid brother needs to make an appearance one day, he certainly can - that's the one thing the TOS writers were careful about, not telling us too much about the family lives of our heroes. Hence Kirk can have three nephews and we can get shown one, without any contradiction. Indeed, one of Kirk's brothers dies, but nothing is established about whether he has more, or whether he has sisters, or about the status of their parents. So, when we learn something about Chekov's family, it's conveniently when everybody is lying to each other for plot reasons...

Oh, sure.

You don't think that was "cool"?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[BK613]

Kirk and Spock met at Starfleet Academy.

Not possible. Spock was already on the Enterprise when Kirk was at the academy. See The Cage.

Kirk isn't featured in The Cage, and The Menagerie establishes nothing about Kirk was doing at the time of the Talos IV mission. All TOS tells us is that the Talos IV mission was 13 years ago, that Kirk's Academy days were 15 years ago (As said in Where No Man Has Gone Before and Shore Leave) and that Spock has been in Starfleet for 18 years (Journey to Babel and The Enterprise Incident).

From that data, all we can really say is that Kirk & Spock weren't in the same class at Starfleet Academy. Their years there might have overlapped, but they might not have. Since Kirk comments in Patterns of Force that John Gill was his history teacher at the Academy and says that he'd never met the man, I'm inclined to think that their times there didn't overlap.

A Private Little War has Lt. Kirk bromancing with Tyree about the same time Pike and Co. were doing the Zoo.

KIRK: Or so it seemed to the brash young Lieutenant Kirk on his first planet survey.

...
KIRK: When I left there thirteen years ago, those villagers had barely learned to forge iron. Spock was shot with a flintlock. How many centuries between those two developments?

Which should put him under the command of Cpt Garrovick, per Obsession.

MCCOY: Am I? I was speaking of Lieutenant James T. Kirk of the starship Farragut. Eleven years ago, you were the young officer at the phaser station when something attacked.
...
MCCOY: Captain Garrovick was very important to you, wasn't he, Jim?
KIRK: Yes. He was my commanding officer from the day I left the Academy. One of the finest men I ever knew.

I voted None BTW.

 

[Poltargyst]

I feel pretty confident that we are to come away with the idea that Chekov doesn't have a brother, the entity put that in his head as a reason to fight the Klingons and that Sulu was telling the simple truth.

My understanding or at least my impression from being a kid in the 70's is that Kirk called McCoy "Bones" because "Bones" is short for "Sawbones", a slang term for surgeon since surgeons were known for amputating limbs back in the day. I actually DON'T like the reimagined reason for Kirk calling McCoy Bones in 09.

 

[Warped9]

Kirk and Spock met at Starfleet Academy.

No.

Kirk's father saw the launch of the Enterprise when Kirk took command.

Maybe.

Spock attended Starfleet Academy after the Vulcan High Council insulted his mother.

Maybe, but I doubt it.

Kirk and McCoy met in a shuttle after McCoy's divorce.

Maybe, but I doubt it.

Spock administered the Kobayashi Maru test at the Academy.

No.

Kirk reprogrammed the Kobayashi Maru test the same way he did in ST '09.

No.

Scotty was exiled to a remote outpost.

No.

Uhura had an Orion roommate at Starfleet Academy.

No.

Kirk dated an Orion cadet while at Starfleet Academy.

No.

None of the above. It all happened differently!

The most likely.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

If Chekov's kid brother needs to make an appearance one day, he certainly can...

Didn't he say Pyotr was an older brother in "Day of the Dove", though? Not that it matters terribly much, what with the brother being non-existent & all...

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ No, Pyotr was never referred to as older (or younger).

I actually DON'T like the reimagined reason for Kirk calling McCoy Bones in 09.

Which was ad-libbed by Karl Urban.

 

[plynch]

I'm a US citizen and i like Omega Glory. It is cheesy, perhaps even "bad," but I like it.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I actually DON'T like the reimagined reason for Kirk calling McCoy Bones in 09.

Which was ad-libbed by Karl Urban.

I wonder what sort of differences we might have seen in ST09 if the writer's strike hadn't been going on while it was shooting, resulting in the script being "locked in" and immune to official rewrites.

 

[mb22]

The one possibility remaining after all is said and done is that Orions market their female slaves (coming from the naturally green Orion species) as "animal women", either because that sells, or because any woman thus marketed is rendered "animal" somehow. Whether this entails removal of sentience, in which case the puppet masters of the ENT episode were pre-animalized, or some other procedure we have yet to be told of, the opportunity for interesting interpretations still remains.

There are regular-colored musicians seen on Orion in "The Cage". Cut material also shows non-green serving women, and slave masters as well.

http://startrekhistory.com/cagepage.html (scroll down)

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media...l_progressive,q_80,w_636/17f82pxshtgrijpg.jpg

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Kirk's father saw the launch of the Enterprise when Kirk took command.

Maybe.

Even though Spock Prime flat out says it happened that way in his timeline.

 

[BK613]

Kirk's father saw the launch of the Enterprise when Kirk took command.

Maybe.

Even though Spock Prime flat out says it happened that way in his timeline.

What he said was that Kirk's dad lived to see Kirk become Captain of the Enterprise; nothing was mentioned about the Enterprise launching.

 

[Kemaiku]

Kirk's father saw the launch of the Enterprise when Kirk took command.

Maybe.

Even though Spock Prime flat out says it happened that way in his timeline.

What he said was that Kirk's dad lived to see Kirk become Captain of the Enterprise; nothing was mentioned about the Enterprise launching.

It's either implied that both happen close together or simply likely that that's how it happened.

Semantics aside, Kirk's father lived to see the Enterprise, and his son, on their five year mission. The original Spock was the one to say it, there are few more trustworthy sources in Trek.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I actually DON'T like the reimagined reason for Kirk calling McCoy Bones in 09.

Which was ad-libbed by Karl Urban.

I wonder what sort of differences we might have seen in ST09 if the writer's strike hadn't been going on while it was shooting, resulting in the script being "locked in" and immune to official rewrites.

I forgot about the strike. So given that Urban's ad lib made it into the final cut, I take it that even when scripts are "locked" that doesn't forbid the actors from ad libbing?

As for the green women: IIRC, the word 'Orion' was not used in "The Cage." Boyce just calls them 'green animal women...slaves.' So when Vina is depicted as one, it doesn't have to be an Orion. She could have been pretty much any species. As could anyone else in that scene. (OTOH, Boyce may have also been engaging in hyperbole when he used the word "slaves.")

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I forgot about the strike. So given that Urban's ad lib made it into the final cut, I take it that even when scripts are "locked" that doesn't forbid the actors from ad libbing?

As I understand it, yes. Actors are free to ad lib and the director can suggest stuff, but folks in the Writers Guild cannot.

As for the green women: IIRC, the word 'Orion' was not used in "The Cage." Boyce just calls them 'green animal women...slaves.' So when Vina is depicted as one, it doesn't have to be an Orion. She could have been pretty much any species. As could anyone else in that scene.

Interesting. I wasn't aware of that.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ The script (which I just checked) takes the opposite view, though: it calls everyone in that scene, except for Pike, an Orion.

Nobody ever uses the word Orion in dialogue in that episode, but those guys sitting next to Pike (like the one who says "Nice place you have here...") are all referred to as Orions, even though they look completely human. So even if you believe things that the script says but aren't actually spoken, it's obvious that it doesn't depict all Orions as slaves or animals.

 

[Timo]

Well, the plot point was that Boyce joked about Pike becoming an Orion slave trader... So it would make sense for the dream sequence to feature humans who had become Orion slave traders, that is, Orions (citizens of Orion) who buy and sell slaves. OTOH, Pike himself appeared serious about starting some sort of a business on Orion, apparently not the (stereotypical?) slave trade... So it would also make sense for the dream to feature humans of other professions who hold Orion citizenship or at least are residents.

Pike in the dream may be a slave trader - or then the sleazebag is the slave trader and he's flaunting his wares to the wealthy Pike who has this "nice place" and seems to like the show and might be buying what he sees...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[mb22]

Well, the plot point was that Boyce joked about Pike becoming an Orion slave trader... So it would make sense for the dream sequence to feature humans who had become Orion slave traders, that is, Orions (citizens of Orion) who buy and sell slaves. OTOH, Pike himself appeared serious about starting some sort of a business on Orion, apparently not the (stereotypical?) slave trade... So it would also make sense for the dream to feature humans of other professions who hold Orion citizenship or at least are residents.

Pike in the dream may be a slave trader - or then the sleazebag is the slave trader and he's flaunting his wares to the wealthy Pike who has this "nice place" and seems to like the show and might be buying what he sees...

For what it's worth, the script lists the 'sleazebag' as "EARTH TRADER".