I agree. The reboot has no relevance to TOS.
Did any of Trek '09's backstory happen to the TOS characters?
- Thread starter JonnyQuest037
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I agree. The reboot has no relevance to TOS.
It does for me. It definitely has a heck of a lot more relevance than any of the spin-offs.
Who said that it did?
The line in Trek 2009 from Spock Prime to NuScotty was a tribute to the line in Star Trek 4, at least that is how I see it. The irony being like in TVH, where Scotty helps the guy "invent" transparent aluminum, Spock Prime helps NuScotty "invent" transwarp beaming in the same way.
And yeah, I agree, the Trek 2009 tech level is close to the same level of the 24 century, and exceeds that of the TOS era.
Guess I'm misinterpreting this
to mean the transwarp beaming is a 23rd Century invention. While Scott starts playing with the idea in the 23rd Century (Prime and New) he doesn't figure out how to make it work until the 24th Century. So it's possible both Scotts did the experiment with Archer's Beagle.
Well, in the Abrams timeline, yeah I agree it is a 23rd century invention. But I don't know if it counts as a 23rd or 24th century invention in the Prime timeline, though, because we aren't sure when Scotty Prime perfected it in that timeline. Scotty may or may not have made an attempt we don't know about to invent transwarp beaming in the 23rd century, but I think since it was never depicted or used in TOS or the TOS movies, its probable it was never perfected during that time. So, I am going on the assumption that since it was never mentioned in the TOS timeline, it was sometime in the 24th century (or at least sometime after the events of Star Trek 6 TUC) that Scotty actually perfected transwarp beaming in the prime timeline. In my personal canon, I like the idea of it having been perfected after he was rescued in Relics.
Sure it does - it plays off of the original and improves TOS a good deal in lots of little ways. The Spock/Uhura thing is a good example.
Spock administering the Kobyashi Maru would have been marvelous because it adds a layer to the conversation that Kirk and Spock have about it in TWOK - but sadly the years probably don't work out.
One of the cool things that I loved about the Spock-Uhura relationship in ST09 is that it gave the music scene in Charlie X an additional layer, (the scene with Spock smiling at Uhura and Uhura singing at Spock and giving him a good natured teasing.)
I think ST09 enhances TOS, it doesn't fail it.
I think ST09 enhances TOS, it doesn't fail it.
Agree. Though, I don't think that they dated in TOS but that's what another reality is for: what ifs.
Quite possibly, they had a mutual attraction in TOS but it was never explored because of the circumstances (Nichols said Gene had wanted to do that but those were the 60s)
TOS Spock was too closed off to allow himself to love someone and I think what made the difference for reboot Spock is the fact that he met her sooner and in a moment in his life when it wasn't too late for him, so to speak. I like that they had a relationship before his mother died too because it added even more depth to the scene between him and Sarek.
It should be noted, though, that maybe the reboot writers have more to work with. In TOS, at the beginning especially, I think the writers didn't have a clear idea of how the vulcan race was yet. At first it seemed they really had no feelings but with time (and in other series too) we get clues about the fact that they do have even more feelings than the humans, actually (which makes sense as the reason why they try to control them) so Spock's feelings aren't just human like you are lead to think at first and how he seems to think himself.
Speaking in general using other series too, it seems, also, that the vulcans actually don't have 'issues' about the idea of having a significant other and fall in love (as long it's not unrequited b/c that would be illogical) that seems to be common and acceptable for them. It's part of survival too.
On the other hand, they don't seem to share our human concept of 'friend'.
That's why I'm not surprised that in ID, nuSpock could have a relationship with Uhura but still don't get why Kirk cared for him (not to mention his reaction was realistic due to them not knowing each other to that extent yet).
So it's fascinating to see him handle both kind of relationships and how they challenge him a bit.
I dunno, but I bet Roddenberry would have loved to play with that too. That's part of the fun with characters like Spock. He's not like Kirk
so him having relationships is less predictable and potentially more complex and you can play with his half alien culture.Yep, just like the rest.
if you notice most of the things in my list are not things really mentioned in the series.
It's a bit difficult to see why Spock's early years would be affected by Nero's incursion, as Vulcan appears to be largely isolated from the rest of the Federation in both timelines. So his reasons for choosing Starfleet should still hold.
Spock then proceeding to train cadets in the no-win simulation sounds like something likely to happen, too: Spock would have the expertise, he might prefer this particular sort of job to deep space swashbuckling, and his early career choices would probably follow his very own personal logic. Neither timeline mentions an influential character who would have affected Spock's life choices, and rather paints him as a person valuing his privacy, so Nero's antics would have little chance of changing things. (However, Spock Prime might have taken up kobayashimaruing several years after the original Kirk took his test, or moved to other things several years before the other Kirk came, cheated, and won.)
The rest is nicely randomized by everybody being in Starfleet, and Starfleet being stirred up by Nero. Only Spock with his half-Vulcan single-mindedness would be more or less immune. But the movie does make claims that fate and self-repairing predestination are at play, so my vote could still go for "all of it happened more or less that way". But I'll nevertheless vote only as argued above: the Spock things happened (and the George Kirk thing of course happened, as this was outright stated), but the rest was "less" rather than "more".
Timo Saloniemi
Spock then proceeding to train cadets in the no-win simulation sounds like something likely to happen, too: Spock would have the expertise, he might prefer this particular sort of job to deep space swashbuckling, and his early career choices would probably follow his very own personal logic. Neither timeline mentions an influential character who would have affected Spock's life choices, and rather paints him as a person valuing his privacy, so Nero's antics would have little chance of changing things. (However, Spock Prime might have taken up kobayashimaruing several years after the original Kirk took his test, or moved to other things several years before the other Kirk came, cheated, and won.)
The rest is nicely randomized by everybody being in Starfleet, and Starfleet being stirred up by Nero. Only Spock with his half-Vulcan single-mindedness would be more or less immune. But the movie does make claims that fate and self-repairing predestination are at play, so my vote could still go for "all of it happened more or less that way". But I'll nevertheless vote only as argued above: the Spock things happened (and the George Kirk thing of course happened, as this was outright stated), but the rest was "less" rather than "more".
Timo Saloniemi
...I'm personally against Kirk knowing Spock at all prior to their mission to the edge of the galaxy. It's McCoy who is Kirk's old friend in TOS, and Spock who has his work cut out for him making friends. (Spock is a friend of Mitchell's according to Dehner, but probably not of Kirk's.) Spock and Pike would go way back as stated in TOS, but perhaps much of that would be at the Academy rather than aboard the Prime Enterprise?
Timo Saloniemi
Timo Saloniemi
Personally, I think of Enterprise: The First Adventure as the Prime-universe analogue to Star Trek, although there have been so many versions of the big events, in fanfic and licenced novels and comics, I think it's fair to say things like Kirk's Kobayashi Maru or McCoy's divorce could have gone exactly like we saw in ST'09.
I was a little annoyed when Spock said that George Kirk lived to see Jim become captain of the Enterprise, after years of novel lore where George mysteriously vanished when JTK was at the academy. But I see why they did it the way they did.
I also like the ages of the new characters - Kirk, Uhura and Sulu being about he same age was my impression upon seeing TOS the first time, and the new movies heavily imply it to be the case (and the intro to the recent comics confirm it)
I was a little annoyed when Spock said that George Kirk lived to see Jim become captain of the Enterprise, after years of novel lore where George mysteriously vanished when JTK was at the academy. But I see why they did it the way they did.
I also like the ages of the new characters - Kirk, Uhura and Sulu being about he same age was my impression upon seeing TOS the first time, and the new movies heavily imply it to be the case (and the intro to the recent comics confirm it)
This.
I think it's unlikely, though, that nothing, absolutely nothing, changed for Spock just because he's half vulcan. There are millions of things that might be the result of Nero incursion. The butterfly effect doesn't selectively choose where to have an effect and vulcan is part of the federation so anything happening to the other planets might influence vulcan as well. There are theories in quantum mechanics that even imagine that the butterfly effect might be retroactive, even, and thus affect even pre-kelvin events (the way I understand it, it's because there isn't really 'time and space' for quantum mechanics, at least not what we refer to when we talk about 'time')
For instance, the enterprise here was completed later compared to the prime reality. By the time this Spock was working at the academy, the other Spock was already working for Pike on the enterprise. So, yeah, we're talking about a period of time that might possibly be years where the two Spock made different experiences because one was in space, while the other was an instructor at the academy.
It's also the nature vs nurture argument. I tend to think the truth is in the middle: your spirit and basic personality traits are the same but it's circumstances (something you can't control) that truly shape you.
If different realities exist and you don't live the same exact life in them all, then you might be a different person in each of them... in small or large part depending on what happened to you.
as for the predestination thing. I always rejected the idea of destiny because I feel it's a way to say that people are doomed, for good or bad, and that free will doesn't exist (which could be used to make excuses if someone did something bad too. So, nope.)
It makes sense for me to think that the universe has some events 'fated' to happen because they're the most probable, but other than that I leave destiny to fairy tales.
You have characters like Chekov who were born in a different year here (that takes the biggest suspension of disbelief, I have to say)
It should be noted that in Star Trek time travel, there is no butterfly effect. Something big and ugly apparently stomps on the poor insects as soon as they emerge from their cocoons, and even if some things are changed for good (a few whales, a scientist and a couple of tons of plastic go missing), nothing "incidental" is (all the heroes and everybody they know 300 years later are born, without butterfly-induced deformities such as new eye color), and generally speaking the future is restored rather than altered.
Timo Saloniemi
This we don't know. Quite possibly, the vessel seen in TOS was built in the 2240s - it just didn't get given the registry NCC-1701. Heck, a cut scene in ST:ID shows a ship of that exact design, with a 700-range (or O700-range) registry, in model form in Marcus' office. The hero ship of the new movies doesn't appear related to the TOS ship in any way save for the registry - and the fact that Starfleet gave the first-ever (?) five-year mission into deep space to this ship, and not one of those Prime-style midgets.
This we don't know. None of the "Menagerie" backstory establishes Spock as staying aboard the ship for eleven years - merely as staying with Pike for that length of time.
That's just another case subject to the vagaries of naming, as with the hero starship. The original man may have been born, and named Pyotr; the second kid then got the name that in the Prime timeline went to the firstborn.
Timo Saloniemi
You're forgetting that Chekov doesn't have a brother in the Prime timeline. Sulu definitively says in "Day of the Dove" that Pavel is an only child. It's what makes Kirk realize that the alien is inventing memories in order to increase the conflict with the Klingons.
Not possible. Spock was already on the Enterprise when Kirk was at the academy. See The Cage.
No. Spock was rebelling against his father.
Not likely. Doctors don't go to Starfleet Academy.
Scotty was born and will die running a starship's engines.
An animal slave woman as a Starfleet officer? Not bloody likely.
An offhand bigoted remark by a random NPC in the pilot. Orions throughout Trek since have been shown to be quite sentient, a syndicate running by the time of TOS would imply an advanced race for some time before it.
As for the rest, as likely as anything else in Trek.
And you'd take Sulu's word over Chekov's own... why?
In any case, the man named Chekov in the prime timeline and Pyotr in the new one might have had a kid brother in one timeline but not the other, due to the Nero effect. But since the worst the Nero effect has ever done to an established character is changing the color of his eyes, I sort of think there was a young Pyotr in the prime timeline, too, and just grounds for Chekov to go hunt for Klingons in "Day of the Dove", * or no *.
That's no obstacle, as the meeting at the Academy in STXI is while Kirk is a cadet (of rather vague commission status, but apparently of Lieutenant rank) and Spock is a commissioned instructor one or two grades his senior. The similarity sought in the prime universe would not be "they were classmates", but a situation in which both would meet at the Academy grounds.
...Which is certainly possible even if the Chris Pike of "The Cage" weren't in any way related to the Academy, and almost inevitable if Pike in the prime timeline were a recruiter just as he appears to be in the new timeline.
It's not as if he would outright say so. And even if he did, we know that Vulcans are lying bastards all, or at least constitutionally incapable of confessing to their true motivations.
Says who? McCoy in the new timeline certainly went, after having completed his medical studies (and a fair deal of practice). We don't know if he wanted to become a military doctor, to capitalize on his past training, or merely a soldier wanting to forget it all - but everything is consistent with the former. We know for a fact that certain Trek doctors did attend the Academy, and the only uncertainty is on whether they conducted their medical studies there or elsewhere or both.
Why not? Starfleet would pride itself on being a refuge for the downtrodden - later it would receive Bajoran rebels and wayward Klingons and whatnot, for great propaganda value. It wouldn't be much different from the RAF taking Polish pilots under its wing: few would originally believe in these uneducated simpletons having any combat worth, but hey, isn't it great these lads carry on the fight against Germany?
As for the "animal slave woman" thing, we don't really know what the distinction is. Are certain women slaves to Orions? Are certain Orion women slaves? Is this because they are animals, or are certain slaves turned into animals? What does animal mean? Is it an insult, a description of profession, a description of biology, or what? TOS, TAS and ENT all contributed to our knowledge of the species, individuals or profession, but still not enough to even determine which of these three we're actually talking about!
Timo Saloniemi
Bashir did.
Was he? Journey to Babel established he didn't speak to Sarek for 18 years after deciding to attend Starfleet Academy. Using the accepted dating that would place him at the Academy from 2249 to 2253. Kirk's years at the Academy are based on his age in the Deadly Years. He would have attended from 2250 to 2254. So they were both at the Academy from 2250 to 2253.
As did Crusher
In the tos series perhaps. The reboot writers had already stated that they use the newest theory about time travel that is quantum mechanics and the creation of quantum realities.
One can't use the old theory to explain this story because the writers purposely made the choice to follow the current theory.
From memory alpha
Nero then proceeded to attack the Kelvin. Kirk used the Kelvin's weapons to prevent Nero from destroying the evacuating shuttles departing the ship, ultimately sacrificing himself by ramming the Kelvin into the Narada. Kirk's actions saved some 800 lives, including his wife, Winona Kirk, and their newborn son, James, but failed to destroy the Narada.
As a major consequence of these events, James Kirk grew up without his father and without the ambitions his father gave him in the prime reality. However, he was persuaded by Christopher Pike to join Starfleet, five years later than he had done in the prime reality.
In the meantime, other events happened differently. Pavel Chekov was born in 2241, while the Romulans were confirmed as relatives of the Vulcans. Plans for the Constitution class were pushed back by a decade and the USS Enterprise began construction in 2255 at the Riverside Shipyard in Iowa, with a number of internal, external and systems design differences to the prime reality version. It was launched three years later, already as the Federation flagship under the command of captain Pike. Spock was already promoted to Commander by this point.
As a major consequence of these events, James Kirk grew up without his father and without the ambitions his father gave him in the prime reality. However, he was persuaded by Christopher Pike to join Starfleet, five years later than he had done in the prime reality.
In the meantime, other events happened differently. Pavel Chekov was born in 2241, while the Romulans were confirmed as relatives of the Vulcans. Plans for the Constitution class were pushed back by a decade and the USS Enterprise began construction in 2255 at the Riverside Shipyard in Iowa, with a number of internal, external and systems design differences to the prime reality version. It was launched three years later, already as the Federation flagship under the command of captain Pike. Spock was already promoted to Commander by this point.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Alternate_reality
The original enterprise from TOS was launched many years before this one.
Aos enterprise: 2258
TOS enterprise: 2250
This we don't know ...or more correctly we know because the writers said he's our Chekov
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