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Determining what is the best science fiction television series?

The fact that something called a "soliton wave" might exist doesn't make that Trek episode one tiny bit better than if it were a piece of technobabble. People who liked the episode will still like it, and the correct use of scientific terminology - if it was that - doesn't improve the experience any for those who considered it bad or mediocre.

Kurt Vonnegut pretty much nailed the coffin door shut on the whole "what is science fiction?" thing decades ago. Debating the definition of sf is a parlor game, a secret handshake shared among a society of fans. It really means nothing more than that, and it's not important.

You can't determine criteria for such a thing to the satisfaction of everyone with an informed interest - you can only debate them, endlessly. If you achieve a consensus of three out of four people on any given point, you've accomplished nothing - writers will continue to write what they write, and fans will like whatever they like.

Science fiction is a subgenre of fantasy, just as "swords and sorcery" is.
 
The fact that something called a "soliton wave" might exist doesn't make that Trek episode one tiny bit better than if it were a piece of technobabble. People who liked the episode will still like it, and the correct use of scientific terminology - if it was that - doesn't improve the experience any for those who considered it bad or mediocre.

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Agreed. I mean, kudos to the author of that episode for getting his jargon right, but does that make that particular story more exciting or compelling than, say, "City on the Edge of Forever" or "Yesterday's Enterprise"? I don't think so.

The primary purpose of science fiction is NOT to educate the public about science. That's what textbooks are for.
 
Gernsback was the guy who popularized the notion of science fiction as didactic literature, almost as if apologizing for publishing his magazines. Ever since there's been this thin thread of "fans are slans" sercon foolishness that seems to spring from an unacknowleged sense of embarrassment and need to justify an enthusiasm that is opaque to people who don't care about the genre.

It's passed from generation to generation in the same way that the Sith train their apprentices, the adherents only slightly more numerous. ;)

Stamp collecting demands some research effort and an interest in detail, dedication and a real aesthetic delight in things that most people don't find interesting. Nonetheless, philatelists don't seem to spend much effort in congratulating one another on being part of an "intellectual elite."
 
Stamp collecting demands some research effort and an interest in detail, dedication and a real aesthetic delight in things that most people don't find interesting. Nonetheless, philatelists don't seem to spend much effort in congratulating one another on being part of an "intellectual elite."


"What? They're putting comic book characters on stamps now? Whatever happened to the Post Office's sense of integrity. Now they're just catering to the lowest common denominator!"
 
1. Doctor Who
2. Blake's 7
3. Star Trek
4. Enterprise
5. Star Trek DS9
6. Star Trek TNG
7. Futurama
8. Firefly
9. True Blood
10. The Avengers
 
1. Dr Who
2, Star Trek
3. Babylon 5
4. Star Trek DS9
5. BSG (revamp)
6. BSG (original)
7. Blake's 7
8. Star Trek TNG
9. Star Cops
10. Firefly
 
The title of the thread is not "What is the best science fiction television series?" but "Determining what is the best science fiction series?"

So it is not really about voting it is about determining criteria.

An example from Star Trek is the SOLITON WAVE....It is the difference between SCIENCE Fiction and sci-fi and fantasy.

psik

There are those who like exotic daydreams, and find the outside world uninteresting or intimidating or an irritating distraction from navel gazing. This set usually doesn't know much about nature or society or people in general. So, discovering there is really is a soliton wave has no more esthetic appeal than anything else outside their egos. (None, apparently.) If the real world is irrelevant, then science fiction that tries for its kind of relevance, a reasonable adherence to science, is irrelevant.

But that appeal of science fiction, its potential relevance to the real world, is as much an illusion, an artistic effect, as anything else in fiction. Real science is indeed found in textbooks. Speculation is an indispensable component of real science, but untrammeled speculation can easily lapse into crank science. In science fiction, where the science is speculative (aka fictional) and therefore unrestrained by brute experimental facts, that means that there can't be any rigorous criteria. The ignorance of the reader, the ignorance of the author and the ignorance of the scientific community about the many remaining secrets in nature all conspire against a rigid definition.

Not only that, it being pretty much impossible for a single author to answer all questions, it is pretty much mandatory that some difficulties get finessed. H.G. Wells imagined the end of the world as rigorously as he could, then finessed a time machine to take one of "us" to see it. Also, authors indiscriminately borrow the props, often called tropes, in previous sf works, tacitly assuming the rationales. The force of tradition keeps them around, even as it becomes more and more clear how preposterous they really are. Space war is a good example. A definition of science fiction that changes with progress in science isn't much use.

The notion that goodness in science fiction should be defined in terms of what science fiction, as a unique kind of art, can do is a powerful one. Speculation about nature is something science fiction (and no other kind of fiction) can do is a perfectly reasonable thought. A closely related notion, maybe identical, that science fiction (and no other kind of fiction) can project the consequences for people of scientific change, also is perfectly reasonable.

There is a problem for any definition of science fiction in terms of its esthetic function. Which is that hacks write to marketing categories. They define their work in marketing categories because they are interested in sales. Adverse criticism may have no effect on sales but they are not disposed to take the risk. Therefore no definition in those terms will ever be accepted. No argument is powerful enough to overcome vested interest. Only integrity can do that.

In marketing terms, fantasy and science fiction blend together because lots of people dislike any thought of the fantastic. It offends their certainty that mundane reality is all there is. They can't suspend disbelief, and that's just all there is to it for them. SFX can substitute for suspension of disbelief which is why there's more scifi in movies. But for print, herding all the weird stuff into a category is helpful for the consumer.

Now, it is true that there are no ghosts, talking trees, wizards etc. Whereas it is true that in fact science and technology have, and will continue to, made great, and seemingly fantastic changes. But ignorant people are ignorant of history. For some, fantastic is fantastic. It's all just technicolor for their navel gazing. (The most genres in fantasy and scifi are boys' adventure and romances, both notable as mostly daydreams written down.) For these people, science fiction, fantasy, it's all the same. It's basically the same kind of phenomenon where people are completely indifferent to whether the grammar is intelligible. You know, the kind of think usually called "style." They're basically tone deaf.

For most, in practice, the outward directedness of science fiction gives it an entirely different esthetic experience than the reality shunning fantasy. Which is why the people who like fantasy romances in the various styles of Charlayne Harris, Laurel K. Hamilton, Sherrilyn Kenyon et al. don't generally read the science fiction romances of people like Catherina Asaro, the late Kage Baker, Justina Robson or Sandra Macdonald.

The terms genre and subgenre have been misused in duplicitous debate. "Genre" sometimes means a type of story, like horror or mystery. This usage actually has a coherent meaning. Other times "genre" means a particular marketing category, useful only when wandering through a bookstore.Other times, "genre" is a loaded term, meant to imply sensational, melodramatic, simplistic, essentially popular. Statements like "Science fiction is a subgenre of fantasy," can't really mean much except "Fuck you for pretending to have standards." The implicit statement is "Literature is a subgenre of realism." Which makes the insult intended obvious as the expense of showing how stupid the thinking is.

My apologies for getting long winded. People called out to work Christmas Eve, people falling, snowstorms wrecking holiday plans, light fixtures crashing to the floor and people walking on glass. Things haven't gone smoothly and stating the obvious is such a soothing exercise, I couldn't resist.
 
1. Star Trek TOS
2. Firefly
3. The X-Files
4. nuBSG
5. Lost
6. Star Trek Voyager
7. Star Trek DS9
8. Farscape
9. Buffy the Vampire Slayer
10. Xena Warrior Princess
 
0. Red Dwarf
1. Star Trek Deep Space 9
2. Babylon 5
3. Lexx
4. Star Trek TNG
5. Firefly
6. Star Trek Enterprise
7. Farscape
8. NuBSG
9. Space 1999
 
But it isn't rated all that high by people that want the excitement of running around shooting evil aliens with glowing eyes. Stuff like Star Wars is more like Lord of the Rings than 2001: A Space Odyssey. It took 2001 5 years to make money. GOOD sci-fi has a harder time making money. Caprica gives us neurotic AI. Why should intelligent machines with faster than light travel give a damn about humans considering how big the galaxy is? But if they just took off and left the humans behind there would be no story.
Comparing movies to television series is always bogus. One-off movies can always take a hard science fiction line that would never work on television. Moon and Gattaca are good examples. Also, taking a long time to make a film doesn't make it a better film and it certainly doesn't make it "GOOD" compared more fantasy based films.
 
Anyone is yet to vote has less 24 hours. Results tomorrow.

Whew... in under the wire. :D

01.) The Twilight Zone (original)
02.) Doctor Who (the whole wibbly-wobbly ball of wax)
03.) Star Trek (original)
04.) Babylon 5
05.) Star Trek: the Next Generation
06.) Farscape
07.) Blake's 7
08.) Buffy the Vampire Slayer
09.) Battlestar Gallactica (new)
10.) Futurama

Note: as much as I thoroughly love "Crusade" and "Firefly", I could not in good conscience list them here. As others have noted before, these shows just weren't on air long enough to give a fair comparison.
 
Well, I haven't seen Babylon 5, Farscape or Firefly yet (I intend to), so out of those I have seen...

1. Buffy the Vampire Slayer
2. Lost
3. Star Trek: Deep Space Nine
4. Battlestar Galactica (new)
5. The X-Files
6. The Twilight Zone (original)
7. Doctor Who (new)
8. Angel
9. Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles
10. Futurama
....
11. Star Trek
12. The 4400
13. Space: Above and Beyond
14. Life On Mars
15. Carnivale
 
The title of the thread is not "What is the best science fiction television series?" but "Determining what is the best science fiction series?"

So it is not really about voting it is about determining criteria.
I respectfully disagree, given that Paranoid Elf - the thread's author - stated this in his original post:
So pick a maximum of ten television series in order of best. Spinoffs aren't part of the original and can include Superhero shows (such as Batman, Smallville, Heroes, etc) in your ten shows. There is no new/classic Doctor Who, as it's one show.

I'll announce the top 20 shows in the new year, so you have until the 31st December midday, AEST to cast your ten shows.




I tend to prefer "Favorite" over "Best." With "Best," people often feel obliged to recite the acknowledged classics, which can get boring. "Favorite" lists tend to be more idiosyncratic and interesting.

And, of course, fans are never going to agree on what's "Best." :)
Normally, that's the way I roll as well. It's far easier to go with "Favorite" as opposed to "Best", ... but where's the fun in that? :lol: But seriously, I figured for once I might try living on the edge and going with what I think are the best. Now that's based primarily on what I have actually watched and a bit on what I hear from a variety of others.
 
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