Democratic Candidates drinking the Republican Kool Aid

[STR]

You're right, this is the crux of the argument because I don't see how the government has a right to pick winners and losers. You say that if the government needs more money then it should go looking for someone to tax while I say they should go looking for something to cut or wait until they have the money. That's how the rest of us balance our budget, why can't the government think like that?

I'm not sure how, but you completely missed my point. Pretty much all of it, starting from my first post. As a refresher, I stated that it's least harmful to raise taxes and decrease social benefits and military expense.

And taxing certain entities at the expense of others is inherent in any policy. You can't equalize everything. Flat taxes discriminate against the poor, progressive taxes against the rich. There's always winners and losers because ANYTIME you change tax policy, somebody ends up paying more, some less. Pretending that you can have a non-discriminating tax policy is laughable. You pick what you want to reward (in my case, economic productivity) and what you want to punish (perpetual wealth), and set rates and policy accordingly.

So you're willing to admit that there already is hundreds of billion of dollars in waste already thru pork?

Given what you posted, I'm more certain than ever that "pork" is not a systemic problem, but a fringe issue that WILL NOT FIX THE PROBLEM. Complain about pork is like arresting ten low-level thugs and saying you've solved urban gang crime in Chicago. The US budget shortfall (excluding cyclical and one-time expenses) is in the range of half a trillion dollars each year. To think that there's $500 billion in fat is fantasy.

Your block quote is a great proof of my earlier point. Everything from building renewable energy (which generally saves money in the long run), to pollution cleanup efforts (who else is going to do it if the feds don't?), to helping native Americans (not a fan of white guilt, but those people live in AWFUL conditions, and $3 billion isn't that much money in the grand scheme) are all great examples of things that aren't really waste as much as things you don't agree with.

$1.35 billion to continue the President’s Race to the Top challenge and to expand the competition from states to school districts that are ready for comprehensive reform.

This just sounds stupid. Then again, I might just be ignorant and this is somehow a great way to improve student performance. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Nearly $620 million through the Land and Water Conservation Fund for DOI and USDA to acquire new lands for national parks, forests and refuges, protect endangered species habitat, and promote outdoor recreation.

I'm not entirely sure we need more national parks, more specifically, that it should be a half-billion dollar priority at the time.

$19.6 billion for the Housing Choice Voucher program to help more than two million extremely low- to low-income families with rental assistance to live in decent housing in neighborhoods of their choice.

This, one of your larger items, is probably something we'd agree on politically. I don't think anyone is entitled to live wherever they want. If your neighborhood sucks, perhaps you need to do more to help make it less dysfunctional.

So, we're at $21 billion, plus the 1 from before, and you've got 188 billion left.

 

[gturner]

Not to change the subject, but this blurb really doesn't deserve its own thread.

Former Vice President Walter Mondale said on CNN that President Obama relies too much on teleprompters -- which Mondale called "idiot boards" -- when speaking to the American people.

In a discussion of whether Obama projects empathy in his speeches, the 82 year-old Mondale said the president "has got to connect with the American people."​

Washington Examiner link

This is the same Walter Mondale who won 13 electoral votes when he ran for President, only slightly more than your cat got.

 

[ichab]

And taxing certain entities at the expense of others is inherent in any policy. You can't equalize everything. Flat taxes discriminate against the poor, progressive taxes against the rich. There's always winners and losers because ANYTIME you change tax policy, somebody ends up paying more, some less. Pretending that you can have a non-discriminating tax policy is laughable. You pick what you want to reward (in my case, economic productivity) and what you want to punish (perpetual wealth), and set rates and policy accordingly.

No it isn't laughable and you are completely wrong about a flat tax. A flat tax rate that is applied to everyone is NOT unfair to the poor. If the rich pay 20% of their income and the poor pay 20 percent, that is fair.You're still getting a higher number of tax dollars from the rich, the only difference now is that everyone is expected to contribute and the middle class isn't getting unfairly taxed like they are in the current system. The idea of picking who you want to reward at the expense of others is clearly a liberal ideal and not one shared by the vast majority of people who actually pay taxes.

Given what you posted, I'm more certain than ever that "pork" is not a systemic problem, but a fringe issue that WILL NOT FIX THE PROBLEM. Complain about pork is like arresting ten low-level thugs and saying you've solved urban gang crime in Chicago. The US budget shortfall (excluding cyclical and one-time expenses) is in the range of half a trillion dollars each year. To think that there's $500 billion in fat is fantasy.

Who said anything about that being the one size fits all solution? I mentioned many other ways to fix this problem which you chose to ignore. I never said we should completely get rid of every program. I said we should cut spending back. Big difference.

Your block quote is a great proof of my earlier point. Everything from building renewable energy (which generally saves money in the long run), to pollution cleanup efforts (who else is going to do it if the feds don't?), to helping native Americans (not a fan of white guilt, but those people live in AWFUL conditions, and $3 billion isn't that much money in the grand scheme) are all great examples of things that aren't really waste as much as things you don't agree with.

In terms of what should be our government's priority, no I don't agree with it. When people's homes are being foreclosed on and people are hurting for jobs, I believe our focus should be on that,not throwing more money at education and the environment, which have been nothing but huge money pits that money alone isn't going to fix. I'd love a brand new car along with a bunch of other things but unfortunatly I'm one of those people who can't print more money,raise my own debt ceiling or ask China to bail me out. I have to prioritize, so all that has to wait.Increased spending in education and the environment should also wait.

 

[ichab]

Not to change the subject, but this blurb really doesn't deserve its own thread.

Former Vice President Walter Mondale said on CNN that President Obama relies too much on teleprompters -- which Mondale called "idiot boards" -- when speaking to the American people.

In a discussion of whether Obama projects empathy in his speeches, the 82 year-old Mondale said the president "has got to connect with the American people."​

Washington Examiner link

This is the same Walter Mondale who won 13 electoral votes when he ran for President, only slightly more than your cat got.

Meh, teleprompters have been around for quite awhile and as far as I know, every president for the last 20 years have used these. And Mondale is the last person on the face of this planet that needs to be giving advice. There are many criticisms I have for the current president, but this isn't one of them.

 

[SPOCKED]

There are many criticisms I have for the current president, but this isn't one of them.

In this troubled economy where jobs are hard to come by... the TOTUS agrees

 

[Robert D. Robot]

There are many criticisms I have for the current president, but this isn't one of them.

In total agreement with you.

Sick of the goofy teleprompter non-issue tossed around by both the goofy Glen Becks and the goofy Leslie Marshals at the extremes as they criticize the politicians they oppose.

 

[gturner]

Arthur Laffer addressed the Bill Gates tax idea today, comparing states that have enacted income taxes with states that didn't.

Wall Street Journal link

 

[Guartho]

A flat tax rate that is applied to everyone is NOT unfair to the poor. If the rich pay 20% of their income and the poor pay 20 percent, that is fair.

Only if the poor pay for all their necessities with the same percentage of their income as the rich. If reality doesn't match that, then a flat tax is indeed inherently unfair to the poor.

I'll do the math for you. If the poor are taxed at 20% and they need 80% to pay for food, shelter, utilities, and transportation then they have 0 discretionary income. And, with 0 discretionary income, it's pretty damn hard to do things like go to school to advance your career so you can stop being poor, to say nothing of participating in, and helping to drive our economy.



If the "rich" are taxed at 20% and need 20% to pay for food, shelter, utilities and transportation then they have 60% discretionary income. With 60% discretionary income it's pretty easy to do things like go to school to advance your career so you can get even richer, to say nothing of how easy it is to participate in and help drive our economy.

A true flat tax ensures that the poorest stay that way, the poorer have a hard time not staying that way and the rich have an easier time staying that way. Great idea.

 

[Robert D. Robot]

^ Nice way of clearly making your point, and I agree, Gore-tho.

 

[gturner]

But I'm sure we all agree that a 0% flat tax is fair, because nobody has ever complained about it. There are hundreds of countries where I pay no income tax regardless of my income, and I like it that way. I'm sure you do, too.

However, regarding the flat tax, it seems that a state could vote to have state taxes cancel out the federal system, making the total state/federal tax rate for residents independent of the federal rate. I know of no states that have intentionally done this, except for adding their own income taxes on top of federal income taxes, but it would be a method of removing Washington's power to use the tax code as a method of social engineering.

 

[Guartho]

However, regarding the flat tax, it seems that a state could vote to have state taxes cancel out the federal system.

How could a state do that without bankrupting itself? For instance, if the State wanted to make it so everyone paid 20% federal/state combined, wouldn't they be drastically raising taxes on the poorest citizens while writing huge taxes to the richest ones? I don't see all those poor people contributing enough taxes to pay for the checks to the rich since the rich pay the majority of taxes in raw dollar amount terms.

 

[STR]

In terms of what should be our government's priority, no I don't agree with it. When people's homes are being foreclosed on and people are hurting for jobs, I believe our focus should be on that,not throwing more money at education and the environment

Unfortunately, that's not how the world works anymore. If you don't have a proper education, do you know who you're competing with? Everyone else without an education, and those people are in other countries earning a lot less than what you'd consider livable. That's if you're lucky. For every outsourced factory job, nine have been automated. Manual labor is obsolete.

The ONLY way to sustain the standard of living we enjoy in this country, nevermind improving it, is to make sure EVERYONE has a solid education. This is the key for the 21st century, and will be even more crucial beyond. The trivial, repetitive jobs are gone. No amount of tariff's, or moaning about exchange rates will bring them back, because when those jobs come back it won't be 1:1 with what left. A 10,000 man car factory will be replaced with a 1,000 man plant with twice the production levels and 1/20 the cost. And the bulk of those worker's won't be on assembly lines, they'll be technical workers repairing robots and troubleshooting computers.

Most of those people will be obsoleted when we start mass producing robots that can repair other robots. What will be left then? High-end, multidisciplinary jobs that are intellectual, technical and require creative thinking. Ask anyone from Intel to Intuitive Surgical, and they'll tell you that the American workforce is NOT able to handle this coming new world.

Today, you have to choose to either get a degree or flip burgers for life. We're approaching the day where a single BA/BS will only land you a secretarial job. If you want security, if you want to stay ahead of the technology curve long enough to have a career, you need a lot of school and that starts with a solid elementary education.

Furthermore, investing in new technologies (like sustainable energy) builds new jobs for the future, while lowering our current account deficit (which is as big as the budget deficit, and is directly enriching foreigners at our expense) by cutting our need for natural resources like oil. Cleaning up waste dumps makes land available for redevelopment. Cutting pollution cuts healthcare costs too. Just like with tax policy, none of the big issues in this country are in a vacuum. All are interrelated and thus need to be dealt with comprehensively.

 

[gturner]

However, regarding the flat tax, it seems that a state could vote to have state taxes cancel out the federal system.

How could a state do that without bankrupting itself? For instance, if the State wanted to make it so everyone paid 20% federal/state combined, wouldn't they be drastically raising taxes on the poorest citizens while writing huge taxes to the richest ones? I don't see all those poor people contributing enough taxes to pay for the checks to the rich since the rich pay the majority of taxes in raw dollar amount terms.

No, none of that would factor in. The state would just compute the total federal payout from its citizens by looking at their 1040's, then send out its tax tables to collect the same total revenue on some different scale.

 

[gturner]

Unfortunately, that's not how the world works anymore. If you don't have a proper education, do you know who you're competing with? Everyone else without an education, and those people are in other countries earning a lot less than what you'd consider livable. That's if you're lucky. For every outsourced factory job, nine have been automated. Manual labor is obsolete.

The ONLY way to sustain the standard of living we enjoy in this country, nevermind improving it, is to make sure EVERYONE has a solid education. This is the key for the 21st century, and will be even more crucial beyond. The trivial, repetitive jobs are gone. No amount of tariff's, or moaning about exchange rates will bring them back, because when those jobs come back it won't be 1:1 with what left. A 10,000 man car factory will be replaced with a 1,000 man plant with twice the production levels and 1/20 the cost. And the bulk of those worker's won't be on assembly lines, they'll be technical workers repairing robots and troubleshooting computers.

Most of those people will be obsoleted when we start mass producing robots that can repair other robots. What will be left then? High-end, multidisciplinary jobs that are intellectual, technical and require creative thinking. Ask anyone from Intel to Intuitive Surgical, and they'll tell you that the American workforce is NOT able to handle this coming new world.

Today, you have to choose to either get a degree or flip burgers for life. We're approaching the day where a single BA/BS will only land you a secretarial job. If you want security, if you want to stay ahead of the technology curve long enough to have a career, you need a lot of school and that starts with a solid elementary education.

Furthermore, investing in new technologies (like sustainable energy) builds new jobs for the future, while lowering our current account deficit (which is as big as the budget deficit, and is directly enriching foreigners at our expense) by cutting our need for natural resources like oil. Cleaning up waste dumps makes land available for redevelopment. Cutting pollution cuts healthcare costs too. Just like with tax policy, none of the big issues in this country are in a vacuum. All are interrelated and thus need to be dealt with comprehensively.

Sorry, but we're blowing money on higher education and the people are still flipping burgers because our colleges don't teach anyone how to operate a milling machine.

Sustainable energy jobs all go to China, because China controls 97% of the world's supply of neodimium and other rare earth elements because environmentalists shut down all the US rare earth mines. We were far better off playing oil producers against each other, but then again, we used to be the world's #1 oil producer but we shut that down, too. One day we might stop shooting ourselves in the foot and allow a productive industry to actually operate on our shores, but I'm doubting it.

 

[STR]

First of all, don't block quote 5 paragraphs of text right after it's been posted. That's hella poor etiquette.

Sorry, but we're blowing money on higher education and the people are still flipping burgers because our colleges don't teach anyone how to operate a milling machine.

What I'm going to say next is equally poor etiquette: bullshit. People that flip burgers with a BA either A) Got a degree in something that only qualifies you to teach other people that degree (which are hard to come by jobs) or B) still don't understand high school level math, which is a horrifically widespread problem that employers have to deal with.

Sustainable energy jobs all go to China, because China controls 97% of the world's supply of neodimium and other rare earth elements because environmentalists shut down all the US rare earth mines.

Right, so let's dump toxic sludge everywhere and if anyone dies, gets cancer or is harmed, we should force them to work in the mines since...well...they couldn't possibly get any worse.

I'm REALLY trying to treat you as something close to an equal here, but you're either utterly out of your depth or are being completely disingenuous. If you really want to look at industries that left our shores because there was no demand for them here, take a look at passenger rail and hybrid autos. In fact, every time you hear that Toyota sold another million Priuses, remember that because the technology was first invented in government labs, GM, Ford and Chrysler had first crack at it, they didn't so the Asians licensed the IP and built a 10 year head start.

We were far better off playing oil producers against each other, but then again, we used to be the world's #1 oil producer but we shut that down, too.

Given that we've blown a trillion dollars in the Mideast in the last decade AND we never had more than 5% of the world's oil reserves to begin with, I again question your seriousness in even posting here. Hell, the only reason the US was EVER the largest producer of oil was because we just started drilling before the Arabs did. But rest assured their oil is cheaper, higher quality, and vastly more plentiful than what we have left. ANWR and Florida coast aside, oil companies are generally given freedom to drill wherever they want since states love the idea of oil money. Which is kinda why no one really bothered to check in on BP from time to time since they were still mailing in the check each month.

So if we had any more oil that's removable at market price, rest assured it would be being pumped right now.

One day we might stop shooting ourselves in the foot and allow a productive industry to actually operate on our shores, but I'm doubting it.

This is both myopic and completely wrong. The United States has the largest manufacturing output of any country in the world. However, it stays that way by investing in new technology and cutting costs. The primary cost is people. So while America makes more things than it ever has in the past, it's doing so with fewer and fewer workers. Those that are left have to be smarter and more productive than the workers that are replaced. There is ZERO evidence that this will not continue.

The archaic milling machine that you were thinking of has morphed into a million dollar computer operated fabricating machine that requires an associates degree in mechanical engineering with a certification from the manufacturer. So while poor ol' Joe was laid off despite 20 years of being a miller, he's simply not qualified to run the machines that power the new economy. He should go to night school.

 

[ichab]

What I'm going to say next is equally poor etiquette: bullshit. People that flip burgers with a BA either A) Got a degree in something that only qualifies you to teach other people that degree (which are hard to come by jobs) or B) still don't understand high school level math, which is a horrifically widespread problem that employers have to deal with.

Flipping burgers was a bit extreme, but many people with college degrees are unemployed:

http://media.www.dailyhelmsman.com/...yment.Greets.Many.College.Grads-3900622.shtml

Right, so let's dump toxic sludge everywhere and if anyone dies, gets cancer or is harmed, we should force them to work in the mines since...well...they couldn't possibly get any worse.

Now whose being disengenious? No one was sayin that we would allow toxic sludge everywhere. We just don't think you need more taxpayer money to enforce the mountains of regulations that are already on the books.

I'm REALLY trying to treat you as something close to an equal here....

Hate to break this to you, but we're all equals on this board. You're no better than anyone else here despite what you may think.

The archaic milling machine that you were thinking of has morphed into a million dollar computer operated fabricating machine that requires an associates degree in mechanical engineering with a certification from the manufacturer. So while poor ol' Joe was laid off despite 20 years of being a miller, he's simply not qualified to run the machines that power the new economy. He should go to night school.

Yeah, let joe in his late 40s go to college and become a computer programmer. Oh wait, those jobs are going to India. What should Joe go back to school and learn now? Nuclear Physics? Get real. Not everyone can do that. That's like expecting everyone who tries out for navy seal training to pass. Doesn't work that way. Not everyone can serve in the military just like not everyone can be an engineer. There are not enough of those jobs in the first place to accomodate all the people on unemployement.

 

[Guartho]

The state would just compute the total federal payout from its citizens by looking at their 1040's, then send out its tax tables to collect the same total revenue on some different scale.

How does that cancel out the federal progressive tax table?

Perhaps I have fundamental misunderstanding of your original post. I thought you were saying a state could hypothetically adjust its tax collection to create an effectively flat tax when state and federal taxes are considered together. Is that not what you were saying?

 

[gturner]

Sustainable energy jobs all go to China, because China controls 97% of the world's supply of neodimium and other rare earth elements because environmentalists shut down all the US rare earth mines.

Right, so let's dump toxic sludge everywhere and if anyone dies, gets cancer or is harmed, we should force them to work in the mines since...well...they couldn't possibly get any worse.

And that's the attitude that shut down our mines, leaving China with a monopoly on rare-earths. Last week Japan and the rest of the world were stunned when China considered responding to the Japanese arrest of a Chinese sea captain with a rare-earth embargo. Without them Japanese industry, especially hybrid cars and other green technology, would grind to a halt.

Advanced electric motors, flat panel displays, and a hundred other things we're coming to depend on (critically green technology and military equipment), require materials that only China supplies. We used to mine such elements out West but stopped because regulators railroaded the industry out of business.

Now the Department of Defense is in a panic and is desperate to reverse the government policies that put us in this position. China is becoming reluctant to sell anyone rare-earths, preferring instead to build the final advanced components that require rare-earths (value added manufacturing). Obama said America would start producing green jobs, but all the new windmills paid for with massive government incentives got outsourced to China.

So in an attempt to throw all our coal miners and oilmen out of work via government regulation, we're going to go green (via government regulation), but all the green jobs we create will be in China because we'd already thrown all our rare-earth miners out of work (via government regulation).

Future prosperity and success aren't automatic. They require making the right choices. Will the US maintain an industrial and technological base sufficient for leadership? The cries of "toxic sludge" say no.

 

[STR]

Last week Japan and the rest of the world were stunned when China considered responding to the Japanese arrest of a Chinese sea captain with a rare-earth embargo.

Embargoes on fungible commodities are asinine. That's why anyone was surprised. As such, trying to play power broker on REE's is equally asinine. This isn't oil we're talking about, or even copper or iron. All the economies of the world use as many tons of copper in a day as they do REE's in a year. On top of that, they're really not THAT rare. Many countries have sizable deposits that they don't mine because the market doesn't have the demand for it. "Rare Earth's" isn't a description, it's a translation of a French term that described the REE-bearing ore chemically. If China wants to play hardball, they'll kick themselves out of the market in 5 years.

Future prosperity and success aren't automatic. They require making the right choices

Which is why we cannot skimp on R&D and education initiatives, or be satisfied with hanging on to outdated factory jobs. Floor workers get the shaft, if you want real money, you have to be the designer, the thinker, the creator. I don't know about you, but I'd rather be on the team inventing the next iPhone, than be one of the wage slaves working on its assembly lines.

I think your problem is that when you think of the economy, all you can imagine is physical production. Mine the ore, turn it into parts, assemble the parts. That's a 19th century way of thinking, two centuries displaced from reality.

The cries of "toxic sludge" say no.

You really don't have any clue what REE's are, or how you get them. The byproducts of REE's mining are nasty products, mostly toxic heavy metals, and a lot of radioactive isotopes. This isn't the red alumina muck that's covering square miles of a European countryside right now. This is the kind of thing that seeps into ground water reservoirs and poisons people by the thousands for decades.

Why do you really think everyone was fine with China taking the market over? They don't have any real leverage, except in the short term, and it's just about the most toxic, polluting and dangerous mining on the planet. For all of that work, you only sell a couple hundred tons a year of it, and you don't make a lot of money on it.

 

[STR]

Flipping burgers was a bit extreme, but many people with college degrees are unemployed:

Unemployment rate by education level:
Less than HSD: 14.76%
HSD: 9.7%
BA/BS: 5.2%

Median Weekly Earnings by education level:
Less than HSD: $454
HSD: $626
BA/BS: $1025

There seems to be a very specific pattern here.

Source: Bureau of Labour

Hate to break this to you, but we're all equals on this board. You're no better than anyone else here despite what you may think.

No, if you come in here and spout off something ridiculous Glenn Beck made up on the fly, I'm NOT going to treat you on the same level as someone who brings actual facts to the table. Now, I have no right to make "yo momma" jokes, but there is a line between disrespecting a person, and dismissing their opinion as ignorant.

Yeah, let joe in his late 40s go to college and become a computer programmer. Oh wait, those jobs are going to India. What should Joe go back to school and learn now? Nuclear Physics? Get real. Not everyone can do that.

Bullshit. It's never too late to learn a new skill. Yes, it may take longer to sink in. Yes, you might be older than your instructor. You need to get over it. The world stops for no one, it adapts to no one. YOU have to adapt to the WORLD. If you refuse, you get stuck in the bottom rung of the ladder. You always have a choice to move up. "Math is hard." is not an excuse. Age is not an excuse, unlike the body, the mind does not inevitably decay.

There are not enough of those jobs in the first place to accomodate all the people on unemployement.

WSJ: Demand for Educated Workers May Outstrip Supply by 2018.