Delta Vega

[3D Master]

Even worse, a SHUTTLE has the capability of beaming you across several lightyears, even though the engineers think you can't beam that far. If an engineer thinks something is impossible to do, then the engineer doesn't design a machine to be able to do it. Apparently, the shuttle needs the sensors to detect the Enterprise at warp, it needs to locate a free space inside, too. And it requires the energy to support a beam over that distance. And whatever is needed to focus the beam needs to be able to focus even over that distance. All of that stuff can't be achieved by simply typing a new formula into a computer. You need to change the hardware.

Don't forget that this particular shuttle is also a bit of a wreck .

They could have covered many of these problems if they had shown that Scotty had already modified the equipment in order to continue the experimentation that got him into trouble or if Spock was already at the base working with him to modify the transporter so that he (Spock) could transport onto the Narada to try and stop Nero.

Kirk being dumped in the snow in a life pod just wasted time, created an excuse for CGI beasties, and led to one of the worst contrivances in the movie (stumbling into Spock in a cave - and where did Spock get all that wood from anyway?). Better by far to transport Kirk to the outpost under armed guard (I proposed Janice Rand just because it allows the use of a missing recurring character) so he can interact with Spock Prime straight away. They could have required Kirk to step outside to modify some equipment in order to use the CGI beasties.

The CGI beasties was just another idiotic scene anyway. Bigger beasty comes along, closes its mouth over smaller beasty... and then tosses it away? It doesn't kill it first, it doesn't attempt to eat it, and it's prime food in a frozen world - it just tosses it away?

Even the animals in this movie are morons.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

What shuttle? There's no shuttle anywhere on Delta Vega, there's only Kirk's escape pod.

You're mistaken. The shuttle was not fully operational--I think it's implied that "a wee bit dodgy" would be an over-kind assessment of its working condition--but both the shuttle's exterior and the shuttle's interior were seen. The shuttle is where Scotty's transporter was located. Compare the interior to that of the shuttle Kirk and McCoy took from Iowa to the academy.

Well, learn something new every day. I was so overwhelmed by all the other horrifying plotholes and bullshit going on in that same scene, I didn't even notice the transporter is in a shuttle...

Reminds me of a guy I knew in college who kept trying to convince everyone "The Godfather" sucked because nothing about the story made any sense. At some point I asked him "Okay, the whole Fredo-Cuba thing... do you not understand why Michael killed him?" at which point he promptly replied, "Who the fuck is Michael?"

The moral of the story: anything will suck if you're too busy hating to actually watch it.

They would still need to know the Enteprise's warp field...

Unless Spock plugged in the numbers from memory.

There was no projection with the Intrepid, nothing visual.

I doubt there was anything visual in this case either, considering Spock's mind meld included scenes and images that neither Spock nor Kirk could have possibly seen with their own eyes.

Or to put it in other terms: bad writing.

How is it "bad writing" to depict a major villain as deranged, confused and dangerously unhinged?

 

[3D Master]

You're mistaken. The shuttle was not fully operational--I think it's implied that "a wee bit dodgy" would be an over-kind assessment of its working condition--but both the shuttle's exterior and the shuttle's interior were seen. The shuttle is where Scotty's transporter was located. Compare the interior to that of the shuttle Kirk and McCoy took from Iowa to the academy.

Well, learn something new every day. I was so overwhelmed by all the other horrifying plotholes and bullshit going on in that same scene, I didn't even notice the transporter is in a shuttle...

Reminds me of a guy I knew in college who kept trying to convince everyone "The Godfather" sucked because nothing about the story made any sense. At some point I asked him "Okay, the whole Fredo-Cuba thing... do you not understand why Michael killed him?" at which point he promptly replied, "Who the fuck is Michael?"

The moral of the story: anything will suck if you're too busy hating to actually watch it.

No, anything that is so filled with plotholes and idiocies you don't even notice half of them, will suck. And it has got nothing to do with hating it, if it were good, I couldn't be pointing out all the plotholes and idiocies, and noticing even more as the first ones I noticed aren't so mindboggling I miss entire points in a scene - because there wouldn't be any.

Unless Spock plugged in the numbers from memory.

He can't do that. This is a different timeline, with an entirely different Enterprise, and thus, different numbers. But it still doesn't matter, you would still actually need to point any targeting scanners in the reasonably right direction; after all, there's nothing stopping two ships of using the same warp field, and thus the same numbers.

There was no projection with the Intrepid, nothing visual.

I doubt there was anything visual in this case either, considering Spock's mind meld included scenes and images that neither Spock nor Kirk could have possibly seen with their own eyes.

Which of course, makes Nero a complete moron. You can't win, either Spock did see it, and the position of the planetoid makes no sense, or he didn't see it and Nero has the mental faculties of three-year-old. Less, actually.

Or to put it in other terms: bad writing.

How is it "bad writing" to depict a major villain as deranged, confused and dangerously unhinged?

Saying he wants Spock to see Vulcan and then making sure he can't see it is not a depiction of deranged, confused and dangerously unhinged. That's a depiction of having the mental faculties of Kelly Bundy.

 

[Set Harth]

Which of course, makes Nero a complete moron.

Wrong. Nero knows all about Vulcans. Vulcans and Romulans share common ancestry, as established by canon and explicitly stated in the Abrams film.

 

[Devon]

How is it "bad writing" to depict a major villain as deranged, confused and dangerously unhinged?

It's a copy and paste comment.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

No, anything that is so filled with plotholes and idiocies you don't even notice half of them, will suck.

Failing to notice the giant shuttlecraft sitting right in the middle of the fucking hangar is a pretty huge one, I think. On the other hand, this plus some of your previous posts leave me convinced you've never actually seen the movie but you're so convinced that it sucks that you're comfortable explaining all the reasons WHY it sucked even though you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

Or to put it in other terms: bad writing.

How is it "bad writing" to depict a major villain as deranged, confused and dangerously unhinged?

Saying he wants Spock to see Vulcan and then making sure he can't see it is not a depiction of deranged, confused and dangerously unhinged. That's a depiction of having the mental faculties of Kelly Bundy.

This is the "Who's Michael" thing all over again.

Do I really need to explain to you WHY he wanted Spock/Spock to "see" the destruction of Vulcan? I'll give you a hint: it doesn't have alot to do with their optic nerves.

 

[3D Master]

No, anything that is so filled with plotholes and idiocies you don't even notice half of them, will suck.

Failing to notice the giant shuttlecraft sitting right in the middle of the fucking hangar is a pretty huge one, I think. On the other hand, this plus some of your previous posts leave me convinced you've never actually seen the movie but you're so convinced that it sucks that you're comfortable explaining all the reasons WHY it sucked even though you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

I've seen the movie twice now, the first watching with a dropped jaw at the sheer stupidity and multiple plotholes in just about every single scene.

The second time while I wrote my review; that's scene - or rather plothole - stop movie, write part of the review, move the movie along again, writing the next part of my review; aka pointing out the next multiple plotholes.

Even in the review I said, that I knew I hadn't even mentioned all the plotholes, because there's just so much bad in it, it obscures more bad. In fact, I noticed lots of new bad stuff, in the second viewing, and I've heard others mentioned other bad stuff that I hadn't even noticed yet, and I'm sure a third viewing should it ever happen, not if I can help it, will reveal even more.

You know, there are movies where it takes multiple views to get all the details, the subtle plot points, or jokes. Star Trek is a movie, that takes multiple viewings to get all the bad stuff.

How is it "bad writing" to depict a major villain as deranged, confused and dangerously unhinged?

Saying he wants Spock to see Vulcan and then making sure he can't see it is not a depiction of deranged, confused and dangerously unhinged. That's a depiction of having the mental faculties of Kelly Bundy.

This is the "Who's Michael" thing all over again.

Do I really need to explain to you WHY he wanted Spock/Spock to "see" the destruction of Vulcan? I'll give you a hint: it doesn't have alot to do with their optic nerves.

Actually, yes, it DOES have something to do with his optic nerves. Seeing something, is after all the best way to unleash emotional hurt. Just telling something happened doesn't make it real and really unleashes the pain until you actually SEE it with your own eyes. So not seeing it, means a detachment from the pain he wants to inflict.

 

[Timo]

Really, the concept of seeing a planet disappear into a black hole is a rather, ah, neutral one. It's a special effect, is all. This visual would only have symbolic significance for Spock - it would be a concrete but very cold and distant indication that Vulcan had ceased to exist. Spock wouldn't see any of his loved ones at that distance; Nero could just as well have sent him a postcard telling "Vulcan Gone, Wish You Were There" to create that same impact.

To let Spock really suffer through it all, Nero could have taken one of the following approaches:

- Make Spock live through the billions of deaths through telepathy
- Put Spock on the dying planet, then yank him to safety at the last moment
- Put Spock in communication with the dying planet and the people there
- Put Spock next to the machinery killing the planet
- Let Spock watch at a distance
- Inform Spock of the event during or after it

That's more or less in a diminishing order of impact. Some of the high-impact alternatives would be wrought with risk, though: Nero's planet-killing scheme was easily disrupted (as we saw on Earth), and alternatives 2-4 might allow Spock to inform empowered parties of the proper ways to do that disruption.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I've seen the movie twice now

And you missed it both times? At this point I wouldn't be surprised if you started complaining "The movie sucked because Spock's ears weren't pointed!"

Saying he wants Spock to see Vulcan and then making sure he can't see it is not a depiction of deranged, confused and dangerously unhinged. That's a depiction of having the mental faculties of Kelly Bundy.

This is the "Who's Michael" thing all over again.

Do I really need to explain to you WHY he wanted Spock/Spock to "see" the destruction of Vulcan? I'll give you a hint: it doesn't have alot to do with their optic nerves.

Actually, yes, it DOES have something to do with his optic nerves. Seeing something, is after all the best way to unleash emotional hurt.

Unless you're a telepath, in which case FEELING it is just as--if not more--effective. Besides, maybe this is one I missed, but I do not recall Nero telling old Spock that he wanted him to SEE anything. I believe the word Spock used was "witness."

Just telling something happened doesn't make it real and really unleashes the pain until you actually SEE it with your own eyes.

Old Spock clearly didn't see it with his own eyes, since none of the things shown in his mind-meld vision were from his visual point of view. Indeed, nearly ALL of them were either extrapolated based on what was supplied from Kirk's mind (the attack on the Kelvin, for example) or Spock's perception of what must have been happening (as in every instance of a shot of the Jellyfish from OUTSIDE the ship).

It's doubtful he even knew what the destruction of Vulcan LOOKED like until he melded with Kirk, though he would have been aware of the death of six billion Vulcans in a way that humans never could.

As he explained it in The Immunity Syndrome:

MCCOY: All of my instruments seem to agree with you if I can trust these crazy Vulcan readings. Spock, how can you be so sure the lntrepid was destroyed?
SPOCK: I sensed it die.
MCCOY: But I thought you had to be in physical contact with a subject before
SPOCK: Doctor, even I, a half-Vulcan, could hear the death scream of four hundred Vulcan minds crying out over the distance between us.

Imagine "hearing" the death scream of six billion Vulcans from a far shorter distance.

 

[Pauln6]

Besides, maybe this is one I missed, but I do not recall Nero telling old Spock that he wanted him to SEE anything. I believe the word Spock used was "witness."

Just telling something happened doesn't make it real and really unleashes the pain until you actually SEE it with your own eyes.

Old Spock clearly didn't see it with his own eyes, since none of the things shown in his mind-meld vision were from his visual point of view. Indeed, nearly ALL of them were either extrapolated based on what was supplied from Kirk's mind (the attack on the Kelvin, for example) or Spock's perception of what must have been happening (as in every instance of a shot of the Jellyfish from OUTSIDE the ship).

It's doubtful he even knew what the destruction of Vulcan LOOKED like until he melded with Kirk, though he would have been aware of the death of six billion Vulcans in a way that humans never could.

As he explained it in The Immunity Syndrome:

MCCOY: All of my instruments seem to agree with you if I can trust these crazy Vulcan readings. Spock, how can you be so sure the lntrepid was destroyed?
SPOCK: I sensed it die.
MCCOY: But I thought you had to be in physical contact with a subject before
SPOCK: Doctor, even I, a half-Vulcan, could hear the death scream of four hundred Vulcan minds crying out over the distance between us.

Imagine "hearing" the death scream of six billion Vulcans from a far shorter distance.

Yep this works for me for all the above reasons. Good call.

 

[Brandonv]

Vulcan doesn't have a moon, however Vulcan is a moon. Both Vulcan and Delta Vega are in orbit around the gas giant T'Khut. Nero timed the implosion of Vulcan to correspond to the moon Vulcan and moon Delta Vega being in conjunction in their orbits, with his superior Vulcan eye sight Spock could see Vulcan clearly in the sky from perhaps a half to a full million kilometers away. Nero also timed Vulcan's implosion so that the side of Delta Vega that he placed Spock on was rotated towards Vulcan.

Being a planet or a moon has nothing to do with a bodies size.

Delta Vega is in the mists of a ice age.

In the theatrical version of TMP, Spock looks into the sky of Vulcan at T'Khuk, there is a moon in transit, maybe it is Delta Vega (don't remember it looking icy). If Vulcan and Delta Vega are about the same size and if Spock can easily see Delta Vega from the surface of Vulcan, then the opposite must be true.

I like this idea of Vulcan and Delta Vega both being moons of a larger planet. It explains why Vulcan was visible from the surface of Delta Vega, and it is consistent with Spock's quote from TOS where he tells Uhura that Vulcan has no moon.

As to why this giant gas planet was never visible on screen? I guess we can just say it is camera-shy, like Endor in Return of the Jedi.

 

[I-Am-Zim]

I must be outta the loop. Where is all this T'Khut stuff coming from. I've never heard of it. (Yeah, I know, and I call myself a Trekkie)

 

[JarodRussell]

I must be outta the loop. Where is all this T'Khut stuff coming from. I've never heard of it. (Yeah, I know, and I call myself a Trekkie)

Only from a couple of novels. Was never mentioned or shown on screen.

 

[3D Master]

We saw it first in TAS, then again in TMP. It was given a name in novels.

 

[JarodRussell]

We saw it first in TAS, then again in TMP. It was given a name in novels.

Funny, because they changed the matte painting in the TMP Director's Cut.

 

[3D Master]

We saw it first in TAS, then again in TMP. It was given a name in novels.

Funny, because they changed the matte painting in the TMP Director's Cut.

Which of course, doesn't matter one little bit.

 

[JarodRussell]

We saw it first in TAS, then again in TMP. It was given a name in novels.

Funny, because they changed the matte painting in the TMP Director's Cut.

Which of course, doesn't matter one little bit.

It does, because the Director's Cut matte painting is the one some ENT matte paintings of Vulcan are based on. So there's no gas giant in orbit.

Oh, teh canon!

 

[3D Master]

Funny, because they changed the matte painting in the TMP Director's Cut.

Which of course, doesn't matter one little bit.

It does, because the Director's Cut matte painting is the one some ENT matte paintings of Vulcan are based on. So there's no gas giant in orbit.

Oh, teh canon!

Yeah, and the matte paintings of the Vulcan city in Ent are based upon the TAS depiction of the city, the TAS that had the gas giant in orbit. It simply means that this was at the time that the gas giant wasn't visible from that spot on Vulcan.

Oh, teh canon!

 

[Timo]

Agreed - from the canon point of view, we're best off thinking that this companion planet (with its apparent moons) is an occasional visitor, often present but even more often absent. Perhaps the times of its presence are also the "off season" for Vulcan, associated with all sorts of seismic nastiness that tends to keep visitors away?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[JarodRussell]

Yet it makes no sense to refer to Vulcan as "planet Vulcan" if it's in fact a moon of a gas giant. You wouldn't hear anyone refer to Titan as "planet Titan".