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Defiant Hierarchy

Bry_Sinclair

Vice Admiral
Admiral
Watching DS9 one thing that baffles me is the chain of command onboard the Defiant. On the station Kira is First Officer, a position she retains when the Defiant is assigned to DS9. That is until Worf arrives. He takes up the post of XO on the ship.

In "Paradise Lost / Homefront" (can't remember exactly which one it is) Worf is in command and Kira mans tactical when they go up against the Lakota. But then in the S6 finale when Sisko is taken 'ill' in the invasion of Chin'toka Kira takes charge, even though Worf is also on the bridge.

There doesn't seem to be any consistency on the Defiant, like there is on DS9 (in the first episode of S5 when Worf is worried about Sisko and Dax out in a runabout, Kira puts him in his place).

-Bry
 
Perhaps the writers forgot in that instance. I don't recall much about the episode, but is there any reason Kira would have taken command priority?
 
Not that I can see.

Sisko comes over all dizzy after being contacted by the Prophets. Kira is the first to notice and goes to him. He witters on about the wormhole aliens and she tells him to go below, adding that they'll get the job done, and then takes charge without question from anyone else.

Not that I'm really complaining, always happy with more Kira!

-B
 
Watching DS9 one thing that baffles me is the chain of command onboard the Defiant. On the station Kira is First Officer, a position she retains when the Defiant is assigned to DS9. That is until Worf arrives. He takes up the post of XO on the ship.

In "Paradise Lost / Homefront" (can't remember exactly which one it is) Worf is in command and Kira mans tactical when they go up against the Lakota. But then in the S6 finale when Sisko is taken 'ill' in the invasion of Chin'toka Kira takes charge, even though Worf is also on the bridge.

There doesn't seem to be any consistency on the Defiant, like there is on DS9 (in the first episode of S5 when Worf is worried about Sisko and Dax out in a runabout, Kira puts him in his place).

-Bry

I pretty sure its this:
Sisko>Worf>Kira>Dax

I remember Sisko was coming in from the GQ all shot up, and Worf was wanting to go look for it and got into it w/Kira...
Kira basically said, while Ben is gone I'm it on the station and Worf was it on the Defiant
 
...Except in cases where Sisko wants to make a political statement and gives control of the Defiant to Bajorans. Such as in "Sons of Mogh" where Kira commanding the patrol run against the Klingons was a powerful assertion of Starfleet's direct support to the Bajoran cause and against Klingon aggression.

Probably the Defiant is conveniently just below the threshold size where Starfleet would insist on a well-defined and formal hierarchy of command, and closer to the devil-may-care nature of the small runabouts.

Timo Saloniemi
 
...Except in cases where Sisko wants to make a political statement and gives control of the Defiant to Bajorans. Such as in "Sons of Mogh" where Kira commanding the patrol run against the Klingons was a powerful assertion of Starfleet's direct support to the Bajoran cause and against Klingon aggression.

Probably the Defiant is conveniently just below the threshold size where Starfleet would insist on a well-defined and formal hierarchy of command, and closer to the devil-may-care nature of the small runabouts.

Timo Saloniemi
That was because Worf at the time was dealing with his issues with his brother, and Sisko didn't want Worf on that mission.
 
Initially in season 4, Worf is first officer of the Defiant and Kira is first officier of the station. According to RHW, the writers went in this direction because they thought Worf needed a well-defined role and nothing else was really available. His official title, "Strategic Operations Officier" is pretty meaningless.

Kira commanded the Defiant in season 4, but only when neither Worf nor Sisko was aboard.

However, it detracted from Kira's leadership role, since so many of the command decisions take place on the Defiant. This is probably why Kira takes command of the Defiant at the end of season 6, rather than Worf. The writers wanted to have her serve as a traditional first officer to Sisko in that situation. It also makes more sense thematically, since Sisko is faltering as a Captain because of his second role as Emissary and Kira believes she is "here to help the Emissary," as she says in Destiny (I think it is). Basically, Kira taking command is meaningful in that situation, whereas Worf taking command would not be.

We can also fanwank that possibly the events of Change of Heart caused an adjustment of the command structure so that Worf no longer had command priority over Kira on the Defiant, though this is never explicitly stated.
 
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Isn't there an episode where Worf specifically says, "You may command the station Major, but I command the Defiant." This is when Sisko's not there, BTW.
 
Isn't there an episode where Worf specifically says, "You may command the station Major, but I command the Defiant." This is when Sisko's not there, BTW.

That is in Apocalypse Rising, the first episode of season 5. It's a moment that highlights another gray area: when the Defiant is docked at DS9, can Worf leave without Kira's consent? The dialogue in this episode seems to suggest that the issue was never really resolved in the writers' minds.

For the most part it's probably for the best that DS9 did not spend too much time on the logistics of station hierarchy. It's a subject best left for fanwank. On the other hand, I actually think that tension between Kira and Worf could have made for an interesting story had the writers addressed it directly, for a number of reasons: the ambiguities of the command structure, Worf's apparent distaste for terrorist tactics (which is mentioned in passing at some point), and the two characters' spiritual side (here they have some common ground, as evidenced in Children of Time and on a couple of other occasions).
 
I always thought Kira had operational control of the station when Sisko wasn't around, considering the fact Bajor owned the station. Bajor didn't have anything to do with Defiant though, which left Worf in charge unless Sisko gave Kira control of Defiant.
 
On the other hand, I actually think that tension between Kira and Worf could have made for an interesting story had the writers addressed it directly
Raises an interesting question: who'd win in a fight between Worf and Kira? :bolian:
 
Watching DS9 one thing that baffles me is the chain of command onboard the Defiant. On the station Kira is First Officer, a position she retains when the Defiant is assigned to DS9. That is until Worf arrives. He takes up the post of XO on the ship.

In "Paradise Lost / Homefront" (can't remember exactly which one it is) Worf is in command and Kira mans tactical when they go up against the Lakota. But then in the S6 finale when Sisko is taken 'ill' in the invasion of Chin'toka Kira takes charge, even though Worf is also on the bridge.

There doesn't seem to be any consistency on the Defiant, like there is on DS9 (in the first episode of S5 when Worf is worried about Sisko and Dax out in a runabout, Kira puts him in his place).

-Bry

As far as I saw it, Sisko commanded both DS9 and the Defiant, Kira was 1st officer on DS9 since it was a Bajoran station (Worf was 3rd... er 2nd officer)..... but the Defiant is a Federation ship, so Worf is 1st officer and Kira would be 3rd officer or 2nd... however they work it out.

However in the case of both Worf and Kira being on the Defiant at the same time with Sisko in command, if Sisko went down, Worf would normally take command.... but since he was currently working tactical in the middle of combat, his expertise were required there and Kira was kind of doing nothing, she took over, as both Worf and Kira do have about equal experience and knowledge due to their backgrounds.

Then again, the 1st officer position could be up to Sisko to change between Kira and Worf depending on the situation. Due to the mission at the time of invading Cardassian space, Sisko might have felt it would be wise to have both Kira and Worf on the ship, put Worf in as Tactical and Kira as 1st officer due to expecting heavy casualties and heavy resistance..... the more the merrier.

And considering the number of times Worf took off with Martok to be 1st officer on his ship and leaving Kira to take over command in his absence, there is probably room for flexibility between both of them being 1st and 2nd.

That is in Apocalypse Rising, the first episode of season 5. It's a moment that highlights another gray area: when the Defiant is docked at DS9, can Worf leave without Kira's consent? The dialogue in this episode seems to suggest that the issue was never really resolved in the writers' minds.

Why is it whenever viewers and fans don't automatically see the dots connected that it has to be some screw up by the writers or the writers missed something, or forgot something.... that it's always the writer's fault? :vulcan:

Hypothetically, Worf couldn't just take the Defiant off wherever he wanted, whenever he wanted, because any ship docked at DS9 or coming to dock at DS9 must get approval from Ops first and make sure they clear departure protocols...... much like a plane attempting to land or leave an airport.

^ That's not fanwank as some would put it.... it's been clearly defined through the show by many examples.

Raises an interesting question: who'd win in a fight between Worf and Kira? :bolian:

Worf...... unless it's some super being or entity, him being caught by surprise or out numbered.... it's rare that worf is defeated in 1 on 1 combat.
 
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Ooh, never thought that Change of Heart might have been the reason that Worf didnt take command. Interesting!
 
Why is it whenever viewers and fans don't automatically see the dots connected that it has to be some screw up by the writers or the writers missed something, or forgot something.... that it's always the writer's fault? :vulcan:

I'm not sure what you're referring to here. There was no mention of "fault" in my post. It's a gray area that was never addressed directly. Whether a particular viewer thinks that is good or bad, important or unimportant is a separate issue. Personally, I don't see it as an issue because often it is better to sublimate these things and let fans sort it out at their leisure.

Hypothetically, Worf couldn't just take the Defiant off wherever he wanted, whenever he wanted, because any ship docked at DS9 or coming to dock at DS9 must get approval from Ops first and make sure they clear departure protocols...... much like a plane attempting to land or leave an airport.

^ That's not fanwank as some would put it.... it's been clearly defined through the show by many examples.

It's a form of fanwank. This is not necessarily a pejorative term, at least not anymore (I concede it was probably originally meant to be). What you are doing is extrapolating a plausible opinion based on what you have seen, but one could easily fanwank something else based on what we know. Worf's posturing in Apocalypse Rising really makes no sense if a clear procedure were in place and there were no doubt as to Kira's control over the Defiant while it is docked at the station.
 
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OTOH, a lot of lives were lost because of Sisko's actions, too. The entire Dominion war could be blamed on him, really. It's just a matter of taste whether one decides Sisko killed those trillions by following orders (which is a-okay and commendable) or by defying orders (which is a big smelly no-no).

Any lives lost due to Worf's inaction are completely speculative; every single member of Starfleet is guilty of the same inaction by definition, and it's highly debatable whether anybody's action would have made any difference anyway. For all we know, the doublecrosser who claimed his information could save lives was a complete fraud, and extracting him and making use of him would in fact have cost the Federation further lives.

If Starfleet/Sisko wanted to use the incident to stall Worf's career, then, it was only because Starfleet/Sisko already wanted Worf's career stalled - as a standalone incident, the decision to abort and withdraw was standard Starfleet operating procedure and would have raised no eyebrows if some random pair of people had been involved instead. (Whether the decisive factor would have been that this random pair was not married, or that this random pair didn't feature Worf, is completely up to speculation, as Starfleet clearly has no rule against sending married couples, bedfellows, best friends or pairs obligated by mutual dark oaths to combat together.)

Timo Saloniemi
 
I don't think Sisko's a perfect angel either...I still think he should've been punished for poisoning that planet in the DMZ, and the writers should've thought about it when they wrote him doing that. Hell, I even think the Cardassians might've had a legitimate claim against him for that, too, if they had chosen to pursue it. (If I were them, I would say that if it was a Cardassian-held world, even if humans settled on it, then Sisko is guilty of deploying WMDs in Cardassian territory and therefore punishable under their law.) But I still think that the decisive factor in the particular case we're discussing was that this pair was married, and the ranking officer put his marriage above the chance (and yes, Lasaran could've been lying) that they could do something that would save many lives and help end the war sooner.
 
Since Starfleet doesn't oppose married couple operating together, though, the "charges" against Worf would be entirely dependent on speculation about the role of the marriage in motivating Worf to withdraw. No such role was demonstrated in the briefing and dressing-down.

Of course, if Starfleet did oppose such a practice, then it's Sisko who should rot in jail for the deed.

Timo Saloniemi
 
I'm not sure what you're referring to here. There was no mention of "fault" in my post. It's a gray area that was never addressed directly. Whether a particular viewer thinks that is good or bad, important or unimportant is a separate issue. Personally, I don't see it as an issue because often it is better to sublimate these things and let fans sort it out at their leisure.

I wasn't actually targeting you specifically, I was just voicing an observation I've seen in a number of threads where when something isn't picked up on easily by members and fans in here, they will usually reference the writers either missing something, omitting something, or just otherwise screwing up and leaving a big hole in the plot.

It's a form of fanwank. This is not necessarily a pejorative term, at least not anymore (I concede it was probably originally meant to be). What you are doing is extrapolating a plausible opinion based on what you have seen, but one could easily fanwank something else based on what we know. Worf's posturing in Apocalypse Rising really makes no sense if a clear procedure were in place and there were no doubt as to Kira's control over the Defiant while it is docked at the station.
It's been explained a number of times through the series on how the command structure works and my previous explanations are based on what was said, as well as what was done through various episodes.

DS9 was a jointly operated station with a Starfleet commander in command, but owned by Bajor and under Bajoran jurisdiction. The best way to integrate the Bajorans into being qualified in joining in with the Federation was to get both Starfleet and Bajoran officers to work side by side and equally.

In the same sense, the same procedures were used on the Defiant from time to time, where Kira would be in command or 1st officer or Worf would be.... it tied in with the joint-operations aspect between the Federation and Bajor, which is also why Bajorans were allowed to use the Runabouts and be in command of Starfleet Security officers, etc.

Sure none of this was directly explained within the mentioned episodes above where Kira took command, but considering it was explained a number of times in past episodes over similar situations, why do they need to take out more time in the episodes to re-explain it all again, when it should just be a given?

The only time I remember seeing Kira take command or be first officer on the Defiant was when either Worf wasn't around, the mission they were on had Bajoran interests involved.... or the Defiant was assigned to a large battle involving a large number of ships where having both Worf and Kira's expertise would come in hand..... in the end, it was Sisko's discretion on how it all worked, as there were times Kira was on the Defiant but not as first officer, rather, she was assigned to another station on the left side of the Bridge near O'Brien to keep an eye on sensors, or something.

That would make sense. A LOT of lives were lost because of Worf's actions.

There is no assurance of that actually happening. Worf "Screwed Up" because he chose to save his wife over some informant who claimed to have information on where the Founders were located in the AQ..... but since that information was never provided, nobody can assume that his information would have been accurate, let alone true, or if that information would be practical in the first place considering the founders change appearances/identities all the time. The informant already claimed the Dominion was already on him and suspicious, so it's not that far of a stretch to assume they gave him false information to flush him out.

Therefore, trying to claim without a doubt that a lot of lives were lost because of Worf's actions, be that directly or indirectly, is not very sound and based on emotional bias, not logic.

His actions could have cost the lives of a lot of people..... and then again, his actions might not have.

He could have saved the informant and got the information he had..... and that information could have been useless.

None of us will ever know.
 
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