Defiant and cloacking device from Romulans, why?
- Thread starter JesterFace
- Start date
We have little idea on the histories of the other ships in the fight. Perhaps they had taken a worse pounding than Worf's vessel?
The pulse phasers might work very well against the Borg, if each pulse were of different frequency - switching frequencies in mid-beam might be hard on the hardware, but doing it between pulses would give potency to the little beamlets that otherwise would be inferior to a constantly held beam.
OTOH, pulse phasers might be what you want to fire through a cloak, as a long beam would just draw a big flaming arrow pointing at you for your enemies to aim at... Perhaps that's why Klingons go for pulses, too?
Timo Saloniemi
The pulse phasers might work very well against the Borg, if each pulse were of different frequency - switching frequencies in mid-beam might be hard on the hardware, but doing it between pulses would give potency to the little beamlets that otherwise would be inferior to a constantly held beam.
OTOH, pulse phasers might be what you want to fire through a cloak, as a long beam would just draw a big flaming arrow pointing at you for your enemies to aim at... Perhaps that's why Klingons go for pulses, too?
Timo Saloniemi
I don't like the idea of the hull resisting photon torpedo and beam weapons, at least not if theweapon power is that high.
In early TNG, when the first enconteur with borg, The cube is some kms near the ENT-D and data says that without shield a photon explotion would probably destroy their own ship...Than in DS9 and voyager we see ships resist direct impact...
What's the source for this? As I understand it, neither cloaking tech nor Romulan plasma weapons existed at the time the treaty was negotiated. It was those developments that emboldened them into breaking the treaty in TOS and triggering the events of BOT and the Enterprise Incident.
You're thinking of the wrong treaty. The Treaty of Algeron was a 24th century document.
http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Treaty_of_Algeron
http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Treaty_of_Algeron
I've read the thread but may have missed this - has anyone pointed out that the Federation was also using cloaking technology in Insurrection yet? There must be a pretty narrow definition of what a "cloaking device" is and does or what appears to be fairly standard fed field tech would violate it.
It should be noted that Romulans don't categorically balk at invisibility - TNG featured the "duck blind" concept and other types of optical camouflage that weren't considered violations of the treaty that was (admittedly retroactively) introduced in "The Pegasus". The treaty might be exacting on which types of invisibility are allowed, or then the Romulans in practice would skip comment on all invisibility screens their technology can trivially see through.
A "narrow definition" of a cloaking device is what the Romulans would probably refuse to accept, though, lest they be outmaneuvered by the development of an all-new technology: they'd instead insist on a narrow definition of what is not a forbidden cloaking device!
The invisibility of the deportation ship in ST:INS need not have been any better than the invisibility provided by the duck blind used on the surface of the planet in the movie. It would no doubt be unsuited for military use, as the Son'a would be hard pressed to find an excuse for installing military standard invisibility devices when the purported purpose was to fool iron age primitives! (That is, unless the Treaty of Algeron was nullified for good as the result of the Dominion War, in which case using surplus military cloaks would be the natural choice for ST:INS.)
Timo Saloniemi
A "narrow definition" of a cloaking device is what the Romulans would probably refuse to accept, though, lest they be outmaneuvered by the development of an all-new technology: they'd instead insist on a narrow definition of what is not a forbidden cloaking device!
The invisibility of the deportation ship in ST:INS need not have been any better than the invisibility provided by the duck blind used on the surface of the planet in the movie. It would no doubt be unsuited for military use, as the Son'a would be hard pressed to find an excuse for installing military standard invisibility devices when the purported purpose was to fool iron age primitives! (That is, unless the Treaty of Algeron was nullified for good as the result of the Dominion War, in which case using surplus military cloaks would be the natural choice for ST:INS.)
Timo Saloniemi
Mind you, cloaks don't seem much use against the Dominion. They are never really mentioned in a tactical setting, other than for hit and run attacks. They don't seem to be much use in fleet battles. I wonder if the main benefit is in disguising ship deployments from long range sensors?
The Dominion is said to have sensors that can expose cloaks across an entire sector (Dax blows up one such installation in the season opener). Klingons and Romulans thus might have little strategic use for their cloaks, although tactically they still work well (small Dominion ships can only see through cloaks at point-blank ranges).
In the preceding UFP/KE conflict, and in the KE/CU one before and after that, the Klingons were using lots and lots of cloaking, though. Indeed, a civilian transport of theirs was traveling under cloak in the backstory of "Rules of Engagement", this apparently being standard Klingon practice since that particular element of the scenario was never commented on. One might infer that against opponents other than the Dominion, the main use of cloaks indeed is strategic rather than tactical, and that seeing the enemy conduct strategic movements of forces is evidence that they are fooling you because real movements of forces are invisible!
One wonders whether the Dominion uses cloaks. That they are never seen doing it might just speak well of their discipline. And many an occasion of supposed "long range transporter capacity" could be better explained by a cloakship loitering nearby.
Timo Saloniemi
In the preceding UFP/KE conflict, and in the KE/CU one before and after that, the Klingons were using lots and lots of cloaking, though. Indeed, a civilian transport of theirs was traveling under cloak in the backstory of "Rules of Engagement", this apparently being standard Klingon practice since that particular element of the scenario was never commented on. One might infer that against opponents other than the Dominion, the main use of cloaks indeed is strategic rather than tactical, and that seeing the enemy conduct strategic movements of forces is evidence that they are fooling you because real movements of forces are invisible!
One wonders whether the Dominion uses cloaks. That they are never seen doing it might just speak well of their discipline. And many an occasion of supposed "long range transporter capacity" could be better explained by a cloakship loitering nearby.
Timo Saloniemi
It is possible that The Treaty of Algeron was revised following the Tomed incident to include the cloaking ban.
The wording from "These Are the Voyages" doesn't suggest that Algeron would have predated Tomed, and been revised at that time. Rather, the revision that happened in the early 24th century was called the Treaty of Algeron, putting it apart from any preceding treaties. Otherwise Troi wouldn't immediately associate the treaty of that name with the year 2311 and the redefining of the Neutral Zone.
We don't know if there's a relationship between Tomed and cloaking as such. Or between Tomed and the year 2311, or between Tomed and the Treaty of Algeron. Heck, the only time the Tomed Incident is mentioned in Star Trek at all, in TNG "The Neutral Zone", it is left undefined save for one thing: after that but before the episode, there had been no "direct contact" with the Romulans. For all we know, Tomed was unrelated to Romulans, too, and merely a convenient historical event coinciding with the loss of Romulan contact - similar to somebody saying "there hasn't been plague in Europe since the Reformation" without implying in the slightest that Martin Luther had anything to do with ending the plague.
Timo Saloniemi
We don't know if there's a relationship between Tomed and cloaking as such. Or between Tomed and the year 2311, or between Tomed and the Treaty of Algeron. Heck, the only time the Tomed Incident is mentioned in Star Trek at all, in TNG "The Neutral Zone", it is left undefined save for one thing: after that but before the episode, there had been no "direct contact" with the Romulans. For all we know, Tomed was unrelated to Romulans, too, and merely a convenient historical event coinciding with the loss of Romulan contact - similar to somebody saying "there hasn't been plague in Europe since the Reformation" without implying in the slightest that Martin Luther had anything to do with ending the plague.
Timo Saloniemi
