Defending J.J. Abrams (rant) (Spoilers)

[SeerSGB]

It boils down to this: Do you want the franchise to live on, or wallow in nostalgia until it fades its TV history? Be grateful for at least the fact that Abrams created serious films and didn't go the campy, silly route with them.

 

[BillJ]

Be grateful for at least the fact that Abrams created serious films and didn't go the campy, silly route with them.

This.

After the cancellation of Enterprise, I expected the next Trek project to star Will Farrell and Jack Black as Kirk and Spock.

 

[SeerSGB]

Be grateful for at least the fact that Abrams created serious films and didn't go the campy, silly route with them.

This.

After the cancellation of Enterprise, I expected the next Trek project to star Will Farrell and Jack Black as Kirk and Spock.

To be honest, I'd be surprised if something like that wasn't discussed at some point.

Abrams was the best choice for the job. He has a respect for the genre, he has the name, and--like his style or not--he has talent.

 

[T'Cal]

As for the line from the OP about how TNG's films didn't do much character development, I have to disagree. In GEN, Picard moved forward emotionally after coming to terms with his brother's and nephew's deaths and saving an occupied planet Kirk and Data got emotions (and became an unsuccessful attempt at comic relief), not to mention the E-D died saving the lives of our heroes. FC had Geordi get eye implants, Picard developed feelings for Lily, Data became even more human during his captivity by the Borg Queen, and Deanna moved out of her comfort zone when dealing with the challenging Cochrane. INS saw Deanna and Will rekindle their relationship leading up to marriage in the next film, Picard fell in love, Data moved even closer to being as human as he can be by actively developing a relationship with a child, and Worf became an idiot (what a waste of a deep and richly written character). In NEM, Will & Deanna got married and prepare to move on to Will's first command as captain of Titan, Picard grew personally after meeting his insane young clone, Beverly is moving on to SF Medical, Data is preparing to move up to XO as a full commander, and Data made the most human decision ever - he sacrificed himself for his friends, not merely the ship and crew. While these films weren't great, there was some real character growth in them.

 

[Opus]

As for the line from the OP about how TNG's films didn't do much character development, I have to disagree.

A good topic for discussion.

In GEN, Picard moved forward emotionally after coming to terms with his brother's and nephew's deaths

Except the deaths were contrived. But I give you that Picard had a moment of growth in the movie. But is Picard different in the next movie as a result? I don't personally think so.

and saving an occupied planet (w/)Kirk

But is this character development per se?

and Data got emotions (and became an unsuccessful attempt at comic relief)

As a use of comic relief, yes. As character growth? I don't know. By the next film, he can turn on and off his emotions at will. He's kind of the same old Data.

not to mention the E-D died saving the lives of our heroes.

Not a character.

FC had Geordi get eye implants

But they did nothing to say how this affected the character of Geordi. This isn't "character growth" as defined by a story. We don't know if Geordi learned and grew from having new implants. He never talked about them. No growth here.

Picard developed feelings for Lily

Was that in the novel? Because it wasn't in the movie. They became pals, but Lilly's purpose was to call Picard out on his hypocracy. And speaking of Picard, his character actually regressed to a point before the episode "I, Borg" in Season 5 of TNG because he goes back to his angry revenge seeking ways and acts as though Hugh never existed.

Data became even more human during his captivity by the Borg Queen

Maybe for 0.68 seconds. But by the end of the movie, the reset button is hit and everything's the same again.

and Deanna moved out of her comfort zone when dealing with the challenging Cochrane.

Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to create character development, son.

INS saw Deanna and Will rekindle their relationship leading up to marriage in the next film

Yes, it was nice to see they actually followed through on that. It may be the only instance in the Berman era Trek films.

Picard fell in love

They did nothing with this. They hit the reset button at the end.

Data moved even closer to being as human as he can be by actively developing a relationship with a child

They did nothing with this. Another casualty of the reset button.

and Worf became an idiot (what a waste of a deep and richly written character).

And thus, not "development".

In NEM, Will & Deanna got married and prepare to move on to Will's first command as captain of Titan

Mentioned earlier, a nice touch.

Picard grew personally after meeting his insane young clone

Ugh! Don't remind me of the terrible premise of this movie, and how dreadfully dull Picard and Shinzon's conversations were with each other. "I know you because we share the same genetic material. Woooooo....." Did Logan never hear of... twins?! Nature vs. Nurture and all that jazz? My gosh, what an insipid plot point. And then Picard decides to just give up before Data arrives to beam him back to the E-E. Really?! That just sucks. Is it growth? I don't know. I guess it was supposed to be. It was stupid.

Beverly is moving on to SF Medical

Peripheral to the movie and her character.

Data is preparing to move up to XO as a full commander, and Data made the most human decision ever - he sacrificed himself for his friends, not merely the ship and crew.

True. But we will never know if the writers were going to bring him back as B-4. And since he had downloaded his memories to B-4 before his sacrifice, he would have had no knowledge of itand, as a result, no character growth from it.

While these films weren't great, there was some real character growth in them.

Ehhhh, I don't know. I'd have to say they were better action/adventure flicks than deep stories offering strong, palpable emotional growth of these characters.

 

[BillJ]

Character growth is something that resonates through other stories. Not a plot point that we never hear about again after it happens.

 

[James]

I am a long time TOS fan and I do not think it is obsolete. I am also a hugge JJ Abrams fan and think he has done a wonderful job with Star Trek.

Hugge? Apparently Abrams doesn't inspire proper grammar. Maybe you should stick to Abrams Trek only.

Okay, your first post I might have let slide, assuming snark rather than intent to bait. Your second post is making it much more personal and the baiting more pointed; that will earn you a warning for trolling.

Comments on this should be taken to PM.

Re: this bit...

This board seems to be VERY pro Abrams from what I've read.

You are absolutely right on that one. They should change the name to JJTrekBBS.

You'll want to take that up in the Questions, Suggestions & Feedback forum. We don't do name changes in this one.

Of course I'm going to recieve and infraction or two on here, I don't agree with you people so your pro Abrams attitudes has you eager to slap down anyone with a differing point of view.

 

[James]

You are absolutely right on that one. They should change the name to JJTrekBBS. They are so pro Abrams it's not funny, to them the classic trek is old and obsolete. The classic version of Star Trek is superior to this new version in every way, the classic had life lessons and philosophy that could be applied to the real world plus it had a scientific system based on real astronomy.

You really have no idea what you're talking about. But what else is new?

I like the Abrams films though I think they have flaws and am a huge fan of Star Trek: The Original Series which I started watching in 1975.

So you can take and cram your generalizations. Mmkay?

Clearly you people have never seen the original series or else you would know what I'm talking about when i said philosophies and life lessons. I don't know why you people act like immature kids whenever I present a broad statement, I hit a nerve apparently.

 

[Opus]

Clearly there is a disconnect between saying you don't care for the new movie (others here don't and have shared why) and being able to do so without being insulting about it.

The only nerves you're hitting, it seems, are the moderator's, and I think the perhaps quite soon he's about ready to rectify this "pain".

Just sayin'...

 

[SeerSGB]

You are absolutely right on that one. They should change the name to JJTrekBBS. They are so pro Abrams it's not funny, to them the classic trek is old and obsolete. The classic version of Star Trek is superior to this new version in every way, the classic had life lessons and philosophy that could be applied to the real world plus it had a scientific system based on real astronomy.

You really have no idea what you're talking about. But what else is new?

I like the Abrams films though I think they have flaws and am a huge fan of Star Trek: The Original Series which I started watching in 1975.

So you can take and cram your generalizations. Mmkay?

Clearly you people have never seen the original series or else you would know what I'm talking about when i said philosophies and life lessons. I don't know why you people act like immature kids whenever I present a broad statement, I hit a nerve apparently.

* If you don't like a government, it's okay to over throw them and leave them in chaos.

* 400 advanced people and their ship are worth more than a planet of primitives.

* It's okay to break the rules, if you have a really good reason.

* It's okay to lie and cover up for your friends to protect their military records.

That sort of life lesson?

I love TOS, but I don't build my life around its "lessons". It's fun, entertaining, and not completely mindless. But it's just a TV show at the end of the day.

 

[James]

You really have no idea what you're talking about. But what else is new?

I like the Abrams films though I think they have flaws and am a huge fan of Star Trek: The Original Series which I started watching in 1975.

So you can take and cram your generalizations. Mmkay?

Clearly you people have never seen the original series or else you would know what I'm talking about when i said philosophies and life lessons. I don't know why you people act like immature kids whenever I present a broad statement, I hit a nerve apparently.

* If you don't like a government, it's okay to over throw them and leave them in chaos.

* 400 advanced people and their ship are worth more than a planet of primitives.

* It's okay to break the rules, if you have a really good reason.

* It's okay to lie and cover up for your friends to protect their military records.

That sort of life lesson?

I love TOS, but I don't build my life around its "lessons". It's fun, entertaining, and not completely mindless. But it's just a TV show at the end of the day.

How about "Don't let your hate destroy you" From Let this Be Your Last Battlefield, for openers. There were 430 people not 400, governments break the rules all of the time so any an opposing party did the same thing they wouldn't be in the wrong.

 

[SeerSGB]

Clearly you people have never seen the original series or else you would know what I'm talking about when i said philosophies and life lessons. I don't know why you people act like immature kids whenever I present a broad statement, I hit a nerve apparently.

* If you don't like a government, it's okay to over throw them and leave them in chaos.

* 400 advanced people and their ship are worth more than a planet of primitives.

* It's okay to break the rules, if you have a really good reason.

* It's okay to lie and cover up for your friends to protect their military records.

That sort of life lesson?

I love TOS, but I don't build my life around its "lessons". It's fun, entertaining, and not completely mindless. But it's just a TV show at the end of the day.

How about "Don't let your hate destroy you" From Let this Be Your Last Battlefield, for openers. There were 430 people not 400, governments break the rules all of the time so any an opposing party did the same thing they wouldn't be in the wrong.

So 30 more people make it okay to throw millions into chaos and cost how many lives? Think about it enough, Kirk and the Federation were imperialist assholes.

Any way: TOS was a product of it's time. Kirk a poster boy for American military expansion. "Our way is the only way, or you're the enemy".

 

[James]

* If you don't like a government, it's okay to over throw them and leave them in chaos.

* 400 advanced people and their ship are worth more than a planet of primitives.

* It's okay to break the rules, if you have a really good reason.

* It's okay to lie and cover up for your friends to protect their military records.

That sort of life lesson?

I love TOS, but I don't build my life around its "lessons". It's fun, entertaining, and not completely mindless. But it's just a TV show at the end of the day.

How about "Don't let your hate destroy you" From Let this Be Your Last Battlefield, for openers. There were 430 people not 400, governments break the rules all of the time so any an opposing party did the same thing they wouldn't be in the wrong.

So 30 more people make it okay to throw millions into chaos and cost how many lives? Think about it enough, Kirk and the Federation were imperialist assholes.

Any way: TOS was a product of it's time. Kirk a poster boy for American military expansion. "Our way is the only way, or you're the enemy".

That's not the impression I got when watching the show, Starfleet's attitude was "Our way is the best way in our opinion but if you don't want to do things our way then you are on your own". Starfleet didn't force anyone to do anything they didn't want to, that behavior was left to the Klingons.

 

[Opus]

* What's the best thing for kids after their parents die? Leave them isolated and alone (And the Children Shall Lead)

* Women? Just too darned scary emotional for command... (Turnabout Intruder)

* Don't bet against Kirk with an arm full of kironide when death is on the line (Plato's Stepchildren)

 

[BillJ]

I suggest you go watch A Taste of Armageddon.

 

[James]

* What's the best thing for kids after their parents die? Leave them isolated and alone (And the Children Shall Lead)

* Women? Just too darned scary emotional for command... (Turnabout Intruder)

* Don't bet against Kirk with an arm full of kironide when death is on the line (Plato's Stepchildren)

The Enterprise took the kids to a starbase at the end of And the Children Shall Lead. They weren't left alone.

 

[SeerSGB]

How about "Don't let your hate destroy you" From Let this Be Your Last Battlefield, for openers. There were 430 people not 400, governments break the rules all of the time so any an opposing party did the same thing they wouldn't be in the wrong.

So 30 more people make it okay to throw millions into chaos and cost how many lives? Think about it enough, Kirk and the Federation were imperialist assholes.

Any way: TOS was a product of it's time. Kirk a poster boy for American military expansion. "Our way is the only way, or you're the enemy".

That's not the impression I got when watching the show, Starfleet's attitude was "Our way is the best way in our opinion but if you don't want to do things our way then you are on your own". Starfleet didn't force anyone to do anything they didn't want to, that behavior was left to the Klingons.

Yeah, cause over throwing a government is letting the people decide. Threating to slag a planet is letting the people decide. Destroying a weather controlling computer and warping off to let the naive natives deal with radical weather changes and with no knowledge on how to survive on their own is letting the people decide.

* What's the best thing for kids after their parents die? Leave them isolated and alone (And the Children Shall Lead)

* Women? Just too darned scary emotional for command... (Turnabout Intruder)

* Don't bet against Kirk with an arm full of kironide when death is on the line (Plato's Stepchildren)

Cloud Minders = Kidnap a lawful ruler, involve yourself in a revolt, force said ruler to mine ore inside cave filling with deadly gas.

 

[BillJ]

Clearly you people have never seen the original series or else you would know what I'm talking about when i said philosophies and life lessons. I don't know why you people act like immature kids whenever I present a broad statement, I hit a nerve apparently.

So I'm not a TOS fan because I disagree about the quality of the Abrams films? That's good to know because I've been wasting a ton of space and money on TOS for thirty years now.

Thank you for telling me! Now I can quit wasting money and clear up a ton of space in my house!

 

[James]

Someone is over thinking a bunch of incidents in a tv show. To be fair, Plasus wouldn't listen to any sort of reasoning so exposing him to the zienite gas was the only way to gt him to listen.

 

[Opus]

And the Children Shall Lead - the kids were often left alone on the ship. That's how they were able to conjure the "friendly angel" in secret. Who leaves kids that have just lost their parents unsupervised? Especially when McCoy reports how concerned he is about their emotional state? "Just lost yer' parents? Ah! Suck it up kids..."

Great "life lesson"...