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Debunking TOS exceptionalism

There's a reason why this question is often the basis for master and doctorate theses, because there is no easy answer.

I need to dig up a transcript of Gene Roddenberry's bit about this on the old "Inside Star Trek" album (or just transcribe the thing myself).

(a couple of google searches later...)

Found it.

Gene Roddenberry, circa 1976:

"I think probably the most often asked question about the show is: ‘Why the Star Trek Phenomenon?’ And it could be an important question because you can ask, how can a simple space opera with blinking lights and zap-guns and a hobgoblin with pointy ears reach out and touch the hearts and minds of literally millions of people, and become a cult in some cases?’

Obviously, what this means is, that television has incredible power. They’re saying that if Star Trek can do this, then perhaps another carefully calculated show could move people in other directions. What's to keep selfish interests from creating other cults for selfish purposes, industrial cartels, political parties, governments.

Ultimate power in this world, as you know, has always been one simple thing: the control and manipulation of minds. Fortunately, any attempt, however, to manipulate people through any kind of so-called "Star Trek Formula" is doomed to failure, and I’ll tell you why in just a moment.

First of all, our show did not reach and affect all these people because it was deep and great literature. Star Trek was not Ibsen or Shakespeare. To get a prime time show, a network show, on the air and to keep it there, you must attract and hold a minimum of 18 million people every week. You have to do that in order to move people away from Gomer Pyle, Bonanza, Beverly Hill Billies and so on. And we tried to do this with entertainment, action, adventure, conflict and so on.

But once we got on the air, and within the limits of those action/adventure limits, we did not accept the myth, that the television audience has an infantile mind. We had an idea, and we had a premise, and we still believe that. As a matter of fact we decided to risk the whole show on that premise. We believed that the often ridiculed mass audience is sick of this world’s petty nationalism and all it’s old ways and old hatreds, and that people are not only willing but anxious to think beyond most petty beliefs that have for so long kept mankind divided.

So you see that the formula, the magic ingredient that many people keep seeking, and many of them keep missing, is really not in Star Trek. It is in the audience. There is an intelligent life form out on the other side of that television tube!

The whole show was an attempt to say that humanity will reach maturity and wisdom on the day that it begins not just to tolerate, but to take a special delight in differences in ideas and differences in life forms. We tried to say that the worst possible thing that can happen to all of us is for the future to somehow press us into a common mold, where we begin to act and talk and look and think alike. If we cannot learn to actually enjoy those small differences, take a positive delight in those small differences, between our own kind here on this planet, then we do not deserve to go out into space and meet the diversity that is almost certainly out there.

And I think that this is what people responded to.

The result of that was that seven years after being dropped by the network for saying those things, there are now more people watching it than ever before. And if you ascribe those things to any mystic or scriptural brilliance in Star Trek, you miss the entire point. For Star Trek proves, as faulty as individual episodes could be, is that the much-maligned common man and common woman has an enormous hunger for brotherhood. They are ready for the 23rd century now, and they are light-years ahead of their petty governments and their visionless leaders."
 
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^Good example of GR starting to drink his own Kool Aid.

Firstly, his premise is incorrect in that I see little evidence outside fandom of Trek spawning some great pan-national awakening resulting in some social transformation. Trek was and is a "pop culture" phenomenon with a high degree of public awareness to be sure, but to ascribe it the status of a larger cultural movement is more than a bit of a stretch.

Secondly, the Trek message itself is not without flaws. Roddenberry was a hypocrite on certain issues. For all his vaunted calls for "diversity", he was remarkably intolerant on the subject of religion and traditional values, a stance that became more pronounced in his later years. That attitude is clearly visible in modern Trek, esp TNG. Even in TOS, it seemed that "diversity" meant "diversity that the Federation (as symbolized by Kirk) approved of. Sometimes those decisions were right (such as at Emeniar VI, but sometimes those decisions were arguably wrong (Omicron Ceti).

Over the years, though, even that occasionally flawed interventionism fell out of favor with GR, and as a result, it seemed like the Federation became unwilling to make ANY sort of social or moral judgement at all. Such unreasoning and open-ended bilateralism led it to make unwise agreements such as the Cardassian treaty where it presumed that the other party could be treated with on equal grounds and in good faith.

Indeed, the anti-judgement, anti-militarism of the "we can all get along" Federation of the later Treks almost resulted in the Federation killing itself because that attitude left it weak and unprepared for the sort of fundamental challenge to it's existence that the Dominion War represented.
 
^Good example of GR starting to drink his own Kool Aid.

Firstly, his premise is incorrect in that I see little evidence outside fandom of Trek spawning some great pan-national awakening resulting in some social transformation. Trek was and is a "pop culture" phenomenon with a high degree of public awareness to be sure, but to ascribe it the status of a larger cultural movement is more than a bit of a stretch.

As I understand him, I don't think GR is saying Star Trek started a "'pop culture' phenomenon" or cultural movement, merely that many people liked the way ST depicted social attitudes in the "future" they portrayed. Count me among those people. :techman:

Secondly, the Trek message itself is not without flaws. Roddenberry was a hypocrite on certain issues. For all his vaunted calls for "diversity", he was remarkably intolerant on the subject of religion and traditional values, a stance that became more pronounced in his later years. That attitude is clearly visible in modern Trek, esp TNG. Even in TOS, it seemed that "diversity" meant "diversity that the Federation (as symbolized by Kirk) approved of. Sometimes those decisions were right (such as at Emeniar VI, but sometimes those decisions were arguably wrong (Omicron Ceti).

I wouldn't for a minute agree that promoting or accepting diversity means you have to indulge every idea that comes along (burning those you disagree with at the stake is probably overdoing things though). The TOS Federation anyway, seemed to be interested in promoting freedom over enslavement (of any kind). Maybe there are episodes where Kirk is either being arbitrary or personally expedient (I would be interested in one or two examples), however I would suggest that is not the case with Omicron Ceti. Those flowers were evil man. :p At the very least they were a honey trap that warped people's thinking and repressed creativity and development etc. Freedom is also having opportunities.

Over the years, though, even that occasionally flawed interventionism fell out of favor with GR, and as a result, it seemed like the Federation became unwilling to make ANY sort of social or moral judgement at all. Such unreasoning and open-ended bilateralism led it to make unwise agreements such as the Cardassian treaty where it presumed that the other party could be treated with on equal grounds and in good faith.

Indeed, the anti-judgement, anti-militarism of the "we can all get along" Federation of the later Treks almost resulted in the Federation killing itself because that attitude left it weak and unprepared for the sort of fundamental challenge to it's existence that the Dominion War represented.

Well the Dominion, who knew? But I guess you should have a reasonable level of contingency planning. Also I will say I have never been a complete fan of the Prime Directive. I seem to recall one TNG episode where they were considering letting people die rather than interfere! By all means learn from past colonial mistakes but on the other hand, no entity is an island. :)
 
Well the Dominion, who knew? But I guess you should have a reasonable level of contingency planning. Also I will say I have never been a complete fan of the Prime Directive. I seem to recall one TNG episode where they were considering letting people die rather than interfere! By all means learn from past colonial mistakes but on the other hand, no entity is an island. :)

Another good example of the 24th century Federation's anti-interventionism run amok is the colony Tasha Yar came from. When the government fell apart and the colony into ruin, the Federation just shrugged and let it happen.

Imagine the governor of a state (or the President of the US) letting a city/state fall into anarchy like that citing the idea that "it's their home and their choice, we don't have the right to interfere"...

No sane person living in the real world would say that that was a socially or morally acceptable position.
 
TOS (yes, it is OK to call it that)

I never agreed to that! :klingon:

I never agreed to referring to JJ Abrams as a "talented" dramatic writer.

Sometimes we have to put up with stupidity in order to get down the street.


As for the main topic, plynch's take not only echoes my own but is fairly close to the facts. What Star Trek did wasn't at all new in sci-fi or even television, but it did present all those ideas in one, digestible package that sticks with you, like steel cut oats with pointed ears.
 
Imagine the governor of a state (or the President of the US) letting a city/state fall into anarchy like that citing the idea that "it's their home and their choice, we don't have the right to interfere"....
When I read that, the first thing I thought of was the city of Detroit, Michigan.

:borg:
 
I feel like there's an awful lot of conflating of popular with exceptional here. There's little doubt that Star Trek did a lot of popularize some concepts and—thanks to endlessly repeated tall tales—has taken on the mantle of being a trailblazer. But I think it's demonstrable that Star Trek was not exceptional is its parts, but, as Plynch rightly points out, it's a an exceptionally well made synthesis. I'm totally fine with that, as it seems true. What I'm not comfortable with—to paraphrase Walter Koening—is giving the show approbation for work it didn't do, i.e. much of its supposed trailblazing.

As is usually the case, Maurice is right.
 
I wouldn't for a minute agree that promoting or accepting diversity means you have to indulge every idea that comes along

Exactly so.

Honestly, the only extent to which the original Star Trek engaged the idea of religion 'negatively' was to undermine manipulative prophets and religious methods of control by exposing them as lies - like Landru in "Return of the Archons." But then favouring truth over falsehood is kind of a big deal for that show.

There's really nothing wrong with cultural and ideological diversity - the Vulcans have weird, elaborate and archaic mystique regarding sexuality and marriage, right down to arranged marriages, and the Federation is pretty cool with this.

Imagine the governor of a state (or the President of the US) letting a city/state fall into anarchy like that citing the idea that "it's their home and their choice, we don't have the right to interfere"...

That actually happens. Look at basically any given argument around whether or not the United States should intervene regarding Country X (Yugoslavia, Iraq, etc.) There are always people who favour a non-interventionist standpoint, usually for differing reasons depending on the case in question.

Hell just a month or so ago in TIME I read OP-EDs about why America should intervene in Syria and why it would be disastrous for America to intervene in Syria.
 
Hiliary Clinton (probably the only adult in the whole bloody administration) laid out a pretty clear description of the problem in intervening in Syria, namely that we don't have a clear idea of just who the opposition is, and what we do know isn't very comforting. For instance, do we really want to arm the rebels if they turn out to be al Queda? Or worse?

Like the song says, nobody's right if everybody's wrong.
 
re exeptionalism

Star Trek (fuck this "TOS" noise) was exceptional as a package in that it was arguably one of the early [American] science fiction dramatic series that (mostly) tried to play it straight, where other shows in the genre may have started serious enough but quickly ended up in silly-town. The 1959 CBS series Men Into Space depicted future efforts by the USAF to explore and develop outer space. It was not silly or campy. If anything, it was dry. So Star Trek wasn't first in that territory.

In other words, Star Trek was exceptionally well-made for a science fiction TV series.

Outer Limits and the SF episodes of Twilight Zone were also well made. But they were anthology series, and both episodes tended to work in the horror genre, while Star Trek was a series with returning characters and standing sets. Star Trek was the first series to use its SF tropes in a reasonably competent way to write more or less adult stories in the adventure genre.

Star Trek borrowed a lot from recent print SF. This may not sound like much but is actually pretty groundbreaking, given the nearly religious fervor with which SF series since have resolutely avoided recent print SF. Indeed, that ground is now so overgrown it is ripe for new breaking.

Star Trek of course borrowed from the movies. It's not quite certain how anyone who's watched Forbidden Planet means Star Trek was groundbreaking if that's supposed to mean something that had no precedents. In television terms, borrowing from movies is a kind of groundbreaking, being an adaptation to a novel medium.

On the other hand, as a series—minus subcategory—it was not so exceptional.
Production Value. Watch I Spy or Mission: Impossible or Gunsmoke or Have Gun Will Travel and you'll quickly see that the acting, production, music, and even the writing is pretty average for a dramatic series of the time.

Topicality. Other shows had plenty to say on the subjects Roddenberry and Co. put in scifi drag without the need to disguise it. I Spy's episode "The Loser" dealt head-on with drugs and featured Eartha Kitt as a heroin addicted jazz signer without the need to hide it in a coy metaphor. In one single skit ("Bonanzarosa") The Smothers Brothers Comedy Hour poked fun at more topical issues than any 10 Trek episodes put together.

Race & Nationality
Other shows had non-whites and non-Americans in significant roles: I-Spy, Mission: Impossible and Julia all had black lead characters, not as background players. The Man From U.N.C.L.E. had a Russian character as co-star. Sure, they weren't enough by a long shot, but Star Trek was merely on the curve, not on the leading edge. In this regard, Star Trek was not at the top of the heap, whereas I-Spy and Mission: Impossible were.

Even Spock's not a new character. As pointed out in other threads, he's basically a pointy-eared version of the character Mingo from Daniel Boone: a well educated "half-breed" who lives amongst us. Nimoy's performance is what makes Spock exceptional, and why he was nominated for three Emmys.

Visual Effects. Now here Star Trek is mostly at the top. No sci-fi show prior to it had as convincingly depicted a spacecraft moving through space, and—with come exceptions—many of the effects on the show were state-of-the-art for TV.

Camp. By the standards some people here apply, most everything from 60s TV would be camp, so this is an argument not even worth having.

Most of this is breathtaking for its obliviousness. The idea that television SF should have production values and have serious dramatic values more or less on par with regular dramatic series is pretty groundbreaking. Most SF television since almost explicitly disavows normal notions about quality drama. Normally, quality drama is expected to have plots that make sense, are set in a functional world and are populated by people with comprehensible motives.

The idea that Spock is closely parallel to Mingo is particularly symptomatic. Whether there are really are some significant number of triumphalists who are raving about the unprecedentedness of Star Trek and its unique contributions to the lively arts of television is moot. I think the implication is largely a red herring. But the idea that Star Trek was just a Western in drag, or some sort of typical Sixties TV drama is completely absurd, even if repetition has worn away the shock of its inanity.

It seems to me that the issue of Star Trek's originality is closely tied to current trends in opinion on the famous "optimism" of Star Trek. This optimism (which is not in my opinion a particularly good way of phrasing it, no matter how popular a cliche it is---really, it's just that Star Trek is not misanthropic, not convinced that human nature is immutable, not sure that nothing under the sun is new) is not particularly original in one sense. The Sixties were the last reform era in the US. It was a time of pre-revolutionary ferment. Star Trek's progressivism was neither bold nor original in this context, but as SF, it addressed the larger hopes of the time in a way that contemporary dramas mentioned in the citation above could not. In that sense, Star Trek broke new ground. And since US society and polity have regressed, there has been no new SF series that has broken futher new ground in representing a progressive view of the future.

You could with equal justice say that Star Trek wasn't so groundbreaking, it just seems like it in retrospect because we're moving backwards. Star Trek's originality, whether excessively vaunted or not, is sort of an optical illusion. TV in a deeper sense keeps getting mustier and moldier, resurrecting tired, stale ideas, even as they advertise them as new.
 
It's probably more accurate to say that Star Trek was groundbreaking for science fiction on television, i.e., an attempt to do it straight, in a manner that insisted that the audience take it seriously, as opposed to everyone's favorite whipping boy, Lost In Space, which was typical sci-fi tv up to that point. For the genre, it was a great leap forward, allowing for serious stories to be told, without having to be dumbed down and have a wisecracking robot and a cute kid shoehorned in to make it all family friendly.

Groundbreaking for television in general, not so much, except as a sci-fi tv series that wanted to be treated as seriously as the other dramatic series of the era. Before Star Trek, the idea of a non-anthology tv series being treated as an equal amongst the likes of Gunsmoke, Naked City, Dr. Kildare, etc., would've been laughable. But what they actually did on Star Trek wasn't groundbreaking per se. Just that it was Star Trek that was doing it, and they could get away with a bit more because of it being in sci-fi drag.
 
Being popular does not make a show groundbraking or anything. It was a great show, but even the twilight zone goes above and beyond.

It's these statements that really ruined trek. They've become dependent on quasi religious status to get by. If they realize they were just a show, the later series may have stayed on the air.

If they only had had you around, they'd have been flawless and we'd still be watching Star Trek: TOS 40 years later. :rolleyes:
 
re exeptionalism

Star Trek (fuck this "TOS" noise) was exceptional as a package in that it was arguably one of the early [American] science fiction dramatic series that (mostly) tried to play it straight, where other shows in the genre may have started serious enough but quickly ended up in silly-town. The 1959 CBS series Men Into Space depicted future efforts by the USAF to explore and develop outer space. It was not silly or campy. If anything, it was dry. So Star Trek wasn't first in that territory.

In other words, Star Trek was exceptionally well-made for a science fiction TV series.

Outer Limits and the SF episodes of Twilight Zone were also well made. But they were anthology series, and both episodes tended to work in the horror genre, while Star Trek was a series with returning characters and standing sets. Star Trek was the first series to use its SF tropes in a reasonably competent way to write more or less adult stories in the adventure genre.

Star Trek borrowed a lot from recent print SF. This may not sound like much but is actually pretty groundbreaking, given the nearly religious fervor with which SF series since have resolutely avoided recent print SF. Indeed, that ground is now so overgrown it is ripe for new breaking.

Star Trek of course borrowed from the movies. It's not quite certain how anyone who's watched Forbidden Planet means Star Trek was groundbreaking if that's supposed to mean something that had no precedents. In television terms, borrowing from movies is a kind of groundbreaking, being an adaptation to a novel medium.

On the other hand, as a series—minus subcategory—it was not so exceptional.
Production Value. Watch I Spy or Mission: Impossible or Gunsmoke or Have Gun Will Travel and you'll quickly see that the acting, production, music, and even the writing is pretty average for a dramatic series of the time.

Topicality. Other shows had plenty to say on the subjects Roddenberry and Co. put in scifi drag without the need to disguise it. I Spy's episode "The Loser" dealt head-on with drugs and featured Eartha Kitt as a heroin addicted jazz signer without the need to hide it in a coy metaphor. In one single skit ("Bonanzarosa") The Smothers Brothers Comedy Hour poked fun at more topical issues than any 10 Trek episodes put together.

Race & Nationality
Other shows had non-whites and non-Americans in significant roles: I-Spy, Mission: Impossible and Julia all had black lead characters, not as background players. The Man From U.N.C.L.E. had a Russian character as co-star. Sure, they weren't enough by a long shot, but Star Trek was merely on the curve, not on the leading edge. In this regard, Star Trek was not at the top of the heap, whereas I-Spy and Mission: Impossible were.

Even Spock's not a new character. As pointed out in other threads, he's basically a pointy-eared version of the character Mingo from Daniel Boone: a well educated "half-breed" who lives amongst us. Nimoy's performance is what makes Spock exceptional, and why he was nominated for three Emmys.

Visual Effects. Now here Star Trek is mostly at the top. No sci-fi show prior to it had as convincingly depicted a spacecraft moving through space, and—with come exceptions—many of the effects on the show were state-of-the-art for TV.

Camp. By the standards some people here apply, most everything from 60s TV would be camp, so this is an argument not even worth having.

Most of this is breathtaking for its obliviousness. The idea that television SF should have production values and have serious dramatic values more or less on par with regular dramatic series is pretty groundbreaking. Most SF television since almost explicitly disavows normal notions about quality drama. Normally, quality drama is expected to have plots that make sense, are set in a functional world and are populated by people with comprehensible motives.

The idea that Spock is closely parallel to Mingo is particularly symptomatic. Whether there are really are some significant number of triumphalists who are raving about the unprecedentedness of Star Trek and its unique contributions to the lively arts of television is moot. I think the implication is largely a red herring. But the idea that Star Trek was just a Western in drag, or some sort of typical Sixties TV drama is completely absurd, even if repetition has worn away the shock of its inanity.

It seems to me that the issue of Star Trek's originality is closely tied to current trends in opinion on the famous "optimism" of Star Trek. This optimism (which is not in my opinion a particularly good way of phrasing it, no matter how popular a cliche it is---really, it's just that Star Trek is not misanthropic, not convinced that human nature is immutable, not sure that nothing under the sun is new) is not particularly original in one sense. The Sixties were the last reform era in the US. It was a time of pre-revolutionary ferment. Star Trek's progressivism was neither bold nor original in this context, but as SF, it addressed the larger hopes of the time in a way that contemporary dramas mentioned in the citation above could not. In that sense, Star Trek broke new ground. And since US society and polity have regressed, there has been no new SF series that has broken futher new ground in representing a progressive view of the future.

You could with equal justice say that Star Trek wasn't so groundbreaking, it just seems like it in retrospect because we're moving backwards. Star Trek's originality, whether excessively vaunted or not, is sort of an optical illusion. TV in a deeper sense keeps getting mustier and moldier, resurrecting tired, stale ideas, even as they advertise them as new.
Nicely said.
 
Imagine the governor of a state (or the President of the US) letting a city/state fall into anarchy like that citing the idea that "it's their home and their choice, we don't have the right to interfere"...

That actually happens. Look at basically any given argument around whether or not the United States should intervene regarding Country X (Yugoslavia, Iraq, etc.) There are always people who favour a non-interventionist standpoint, usually for differing reasons depending on the case in question.

Hell just a month or so ago in TIME I read OP-EDs about why America should intervene in Syria and why it would be disastrous for America to intervene in Syria.

Not the same thing. I'm talking about helping your own people. People who are part of your government and society. People who have paid their taxes in support of the "common defense" and "general welfare". People who are supposed to observe the legal and moral standards of the larger society. They are not "the other", they are us.

It's the same as a person paying their taxes to a city faithfully for years and years, and when a fire breaks out being told that the fire department isn't coming because it's "your house".

Hiliary Clinton (probably the only adult in the whole bloody administration) laid out a pretty clear description of the problem in intervening in Syria, namely that we don't have a clear idea of just who the opposition is, and what we do know isn't very comforting. For instance, do we really want to arm the rebels if they turn out to be al Queda? Or worse?

Like the song says, nobody's right if everybody's wrong.

There is wisdom in caution. Back the wrong horse and you can make things worse. Witness Egypt. We backed the insurgents (if only politically) and the Muslem Brotherhood rose to power. The result: their first official acts were to proclaim Israel an enemy and call for the nation to "prepare for war" and to institute a progrom against Koptic Christians.

That doesn't mean that you never intervene though. Just that you do it in a thoughtful and considered way with your eyes open to what might go wrong.
 
Not the same thing. I'm talking about helping your own people.

And Star Trek is not. The principle of non-intervention applies to planets which are not members of the United Federation of Planets.

Perhaps the most literal analogy to Tasha Yar's homeworld Turkana IV and the real world would be Liberia. Liberia was founded by liberated American slaves and funded in its early years as an essentially American effort. As you might have heard, it's also been plagued by brutal civil wars (and traditionally, tensions between the settler, Americo-Liberian class and the Liberian natives) and in all cases the United States was not prone to intervention... because despite America's involvement in Liberia's founding, Liberia was not a State of the Union.

There is wisdom in caution. Back the wrong horse and you can make things worse. Witness Egypt.

Democracies aren't perfect. Witness the United States, for that matter, or Greece. Letting people choose doesn't mean people choose wisely. They can go for demagogues who play on popular enemies and baseless fears just as well as anyone else.

Really the important issue here is that it remains a democracy - this is the biggest failing of the fallout in Iran 1979. Aiming for something like Turkey - a secular country with a secular constitution (even with a majority Islamic party and more frosty relations with Israel than in recent years) is the practical best there.
 
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Most of this is breathtaking for its obliviousness.
When you can learn to argue without taking this kind of tone then maybe I'll bother replying. Since you seemingly can't, it's not worth the effort.
 
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