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Death Wish Decisions...

exodus said:
Nebusj said:
nx1701g said:
^ Do we really know if Q would have returned them though?
Have we got any cases of him breaking his word or going back on a deal?
No, but the deal is never exactly what he offers.

For example: He could send them home, however he could purposely send them back to the wrong time or as beings other than themselves.

There is always a price to pay when dealing with the Q.

That was my thought as well. He's not really one you can trust. Q would likely find some kind of loophole to make it so that whatever agreement they came to, it wouldn't really be what they wanted. Even if Janeway sat down down and listed her terms ("You will promise to send us to the right time, you won't alter us from our current forms, you won't alter whatever is happening in the Federation right now, blah, blah, blah..."), he'd come up with things she inadvertently left out and would likely use those just for shits and giggles. That's just how Q rolls.

Janeway is smart enough to know better. I don't blame her at all for never taking one of his deals.
 
^ Also, at that point in the game all Janeway knew about Q was what Picard had reported to Starfleet. I doubt his reports were very flattering.
 
Rina said:
That was my thought as well. He's not really one you can trust. Q would likely find some kind of loophole to make it so that whatever agreement they came to, it wouldn't really be what they wanted.
I realize that's his reputation, but -- admitting that I don't remember his later appearances that clearly, since it requires superhuman effort to remember ``True Q'' on purpose -- what I'm interested in is where he gets that reputation from, since as far as I can tell he's not gone back on or cheated on his word.

The closest I can find is that at the end of ``Hide and Q'' Picard thinks he's made Q promise to not trouble humans again. But Picard's actual wager with Q was that, if Riker didn't take up the mantle of powergaming, that the Q would ``stay out of humanity's path'', and indeed, he never went on to block humans from their glorious destiny of whatever again. Even the one time he might have seemed to, in ``All Good Things ...'', was saving humanity from obliterating itself.

So. I know we're told over and over that Q is untrustworthy, but I'm looking for the examples of how he's betrayed given trusts.
 
^^Do you trust a person that's manipulative?

Q always has a hidden agenda. That's what makes him untrustworthy.

You don't have to be a lier to not be trusted, you just have to be shady.
 
exodus said:
^^Do you trust a person that's manipulative?

Q always has a hidden agenda. That's what makes him untrustworthy.
His agenda in this case is perfectly clear: he wants Janeway's ruling in his favor.

And in any case, I'm still looking for cases where Q's ``hidden agenda'' prompts him to break an agreement once made. His untrustworthiness seems to be more of an informed attribute than one supported by what we see on-screen.
 
Nebusj said:
Rina said:
That was my thought as well. He's not really one you can trust. Q would likely find some kind of loophole to make it so that whatever agreement they came to, it wouldn't really be what they wanted.
I realize that's his reputation, but -- admitting that I don't remember his later appearances that clearly, since it requires superhuman effort to remember ``True Q'' on purpose
I own the Q Fan Collective DVD set, and "True Q," "Q-less," "The Q and the Grey," and "Q2" are episodes that I never want to revisit again.


And Q definitely is untrustworthy. He takes a single utterance by either Picard, Riker, Sisko, or Janeway and stages elaborate and dangerous games with them.
 
exodus said:
Nebusj said:
nx1701g said:
^ Do we really know if Q would have returned them though?
Have we got any cases of him breaking his word or going back on a deal?
No, but the deal is never exactly what he offers.

For example: He could send them home, however he could purposely send them back to the wrong time or as beings other than themselves.

There is always a price to pay when dealing with the Q.
That's just a superstition of yours. :)

What troubles me is how much support there is for Janeway's decision to violate the PD (yet again) at the cost of continuing to seperate her crew from home. Had Janeway opted to keep the status quo and mind her own business we have every reason to believe that Q would have been fair to Janeway. After all, the Q were under no obligation to submit to her arbitration in the first place.

---------------
 
Nebusj said:
exodus said:
^^Do you trust a person that's manipulative?

Q always has a hidden agenda. That's what makes him untrustworthy.
His agenda in this case is perfectly clear: he wants Janeway's ruling in his favor.

And in any case, I'm still looking for cases where Q's ``hidden agenda'' prompts him to break an agreement once made. His untrustworthiness seems to be more of an informed attribute than one supported by what we see on-screen.
Then stop looking, he hasn't broken any deal but as I said, that doesn't make someone who is clearly shady very trustworthy. That fact that he was trying to manipulate Janeway during a trial is unethical.
 
scotthm said:
Had Janeway opted to keep the status quo and mind her own business we have every reason to believe that Q would have been fair to Janeway. After all, the Q were under no obligation to submit to her arbitration in the first place.

Pretty difficult thing to do when omnipotent beings are making your crew disappear then sending your ship into dangerous "hiding" spots.
 
Romulan_spy said:
I think I would deny asylum. I couldn't support helping someone kill themselves. Furthermore, the Federation tries to respect other cultures no matter how different they are. In this case, where the Q culture is completely on a different plane of existence than ours, we should respect their way of life and not interfer.

But Quinn requested the help of Voyager and her crew. So they were pulled into it. And Q has repeatedly gotten involved with the Federation and Starfleet, so I don't see why "respect for another culture" would be used here.

And the rights of an individual should supersede those of the state. I agree with Janeway's ruling, and while I don't think that Quinn should have committed suicide, he had the right.

(It's interesting to note that Q was complicit in Quinn's suicide, acting as the enabler...)
 
kimc said:
scotthm said:
Had Janeway opted to keep the status quo and mind her own business we have every reason to believe that Q would have been fair to Janeway. After all, the Q were under no obligation to submit to her arbitration in the first place.
Pretty difficult thing to do when omnipotent beings are making your crew disappear then sending your ship into dangerous "hiding" spots.
I thought difficult challenges were the meat that starship captains lived on. :D

Janeway often seemed to me to put her personal pride (I hesitate to use the word 'integrity' since she seemed to vascillate in her principles from time to time) before the welfare of her crew. I found it one of the great flaws of the series. It would have been better to not present opportunities to return home than to have a self-righteous captain thwart their limited chances at every turn.

---------------
 
Admiral Valeris said:
the rights of an individual should supersede those of the state.
Why?

That's certainly one way to look at things, but why? Why, in this case, should the rights of one Q come before the rights of the Continuum and the crew of Voyager? Don't all those other individuals continue to have rights even though they're members of groups?

---------------
 
scotthm said:
Admiral Valeris said:
the rights of an individual should supersede those of the state.
Why?

That's certainly one way to look at things, but why? Why, in this case, should the rights of one Q come before the rights of the Continuum and the crew of Voyager? Don't all those other individuals continue to have rights even though they're members of groups?

---------------

The rights of the crew of Voyager aren't really being infringed upon, plus they granted Quinn his asylum request.

And the Q Continuum, or basically Q representing the Q Continuum, are persecuting one of their own. Quinn has the right to determine his own path, does he not? If Quinn wants to be human, why should the Continuum stop him? They didn't stop Amanda Rogers from being a human again.
 
Admiral Valeris said:
the Q Continuum, or basically Q representing the Q Continuum, are persecuting one of their own. Quinn has the right to determine his own path, does he not?
Apparently not. Believe it or not, the society you live in gets to decide what rights you enjoy. Apparently the Q felt that Quinn had no right to end his existence. But then again, they did allow an outsider to arbitrate the situation, and apparently were willing to abide by Janeway's decision. This doesn't really make much sense, but I never liked this episode very much anyway.

If Quinn wants to be human, why should the Continuum stop him?
I don't know. If I knew everything the Q new I could answer that for you.

edited to add:

...plus they granted Quinn his asylum request.
Yes, amusing isn't it? Did Janeway think the Q were obliged to respect her authority? She didn't grant asylum, the Q gave Quinn asylum. (I know Janeway singlehandedly destroyed the Borg collective, but please let me continue to imagine that the Q were a little more than she could handle.)

---------------
 
scotthm said:
Apparently not. Believe it or not, the society you live in gets to decide what rights you enjoy. Apparently the Q felt that Quinn had no right to end his existence. But then again, they did allow an outsider to arbitrate the situation, and apparently were willing to abide by Janeway's decision. This doesn't really make much sense, but I never liked this episode very much anyway.

Quinn wanted to leave the Continuum, which I find means that he no longer wanted to be a part of that society. If he considered himself no longer a part of that society, then he doesn't have to follow its mandates.

Also, Q assisted Quinn in accomplishing his goal, which was to end his existance.

I don't know. If I knew everything the Q new I could answer that for you.

---------------

That'd be nice, having that much knowledge.
 
scotthm said:
Yes, amusing isn't it? Did Janeway think the Q were obliged to respect her authority? She didn't grant asylum, the Q gave Quinn asylum. (I know Janeway singlehandedly destroyed the Borg collective, but please let me continue to imagine that the Q were a little more than she could handle.)

---------------

The Continuum allowed Janeway to think that she had given Quinn asylum. And I do think the Q were a bit more for her to handle than the Borg.
 
scott Some of this has been touched on, but I had a bit to add.

It's not a Prime Directive issue if the society asks for the captain's involvement. At that point it's doing her job. First Quinn requested asylum. The protocol was to have a trial. The Q agreed to this and made additional arbitration requests. You said it yourself: "The Q were under no obligation to submit to her arbitration in the first place." They chose to involve her, she didn't just interfere in some other society. This was no different than when Picard was asked to get involved in matters of the Klingon Empire.

Janeway often seemed to me to put her personal pride (I hesitate to use the word 'integrity' since she seemed to vascillate in her principles from time to time) before the welfare of her crew.

Either that or she made the tough decisions.

"The Caretaker": She chose to get stranded in the Delta Quadrant, rather than allow the distruction of an entire species. That's not personal pride, that's avoiding genocide.

Granted, it was a bit merkier on the Prime Directive side than any of the other times, but The Caretaker did ask her to destroy his array. In her mind, as she said, "We're already involved." I'm not saying her interpretation of the Prime Directive was correct, or incorrect for that matter, since we've never seen the entire thing verbatum.

"Prime Factors": She decided not to steal and break the laws of another culture. She simply did her job as Starfleet would have wanted.

"Deathwish": It still wasn't personal pride, it was taking her job seriously. No judge, or acting judge, would be doing the right thing if they let the prosecution bribe them.

"The Q and the Grey": Have my baby and your ship can go home. A woman has a right to her own body (within the limits of not infringing on anyone else's rights, of course). No one could ask her to make that choice. Besides, as others in this thread have already said, Q and his loopholes are not to be trusted. Who knows when he would have sent them home, amoung other things.

"Scorpion": Janeway is so obsessed with getting her crew home that she's willing to deal with the Borg. Not playing an active role in genocide is the only thing that stops her from following through.

"Night": Janeway second-guesses the "Caretaker" decision, because she cares so much about her crew that she starts to wonder if letting an entire species die wouldn't have been worth it. That's not the act of someone who doesn't care. That's the act of someone who is obsessed with her crew to the point that she'd put almost anything else aside for them.

"Equinox": She chose not to murder innocent beings to get her crew home, that's hardly personal pride either.

Some of her interpretations were debatable. Janeway can be accused of many things; she's human. However, caring more about herself than her crew is definitely not one of them.
 
Scatta said:
scott Some of this has been touched on, but I had a bit to add.

It's not a Prime Directive issue if the society asks for the captain's involvement. At that point it's doing her job. First Quinn requested asylum. The protocol was to have a trial. The Q agreed to this and made additional arbitration requests. You said it yourself: "The Q were under no obligation to submit to her arbitration in the first place." They chose to involve her, she didn't just interfere in some other society. This was no different than when Picard was asked to get involved in matters of the Klingon Empire.

I wouldn't be so quick to connect Picard's action as Arbiter of Succession to this. That situation is somewhat contradictory (Picard is willing to act as the man who chooses the next Klingon Chancellor, but isn't willing to send Federation resources to assist Gowron since the matter is "by definition an internal Klingon matter.")
 
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