Dear TOS novel writers, it's not you. It's me.

[WebLurker]

Oh huh, I never actually heard that fan theory before. Neat!

If we go with the notion that "Evolution" was in 2366 and ST3 was in 2285 (per the Chronology, anyway), then it's rather imprecise for Data.

Otherwise? That makes more sense than the Enterprise, which had problems, but not a shipwide systemic failure in STV.

I've actually never heard the idea that Data was referring to the Enterprise-A. I don't think that even makes sense, like Dayton Ward has pointed out here.

I think the Excelsior theory was mentioned in the Chronology as a possible explanation for Data's reference in the little "out of universe" section at the end of the entry, and tied it into the conjecture that the Excelsior's transwarp drive failed, and so the project was scrapped (to offer a reason why the Excelsior was using a normal warp drive in the sixth movie, and why normal warp drive was still the engine of choice in the 24th century). The non-canon Haynes guide to the Enterprise chose to state that the Excelsior was the ship that failed and that it was due to transwarp drive malfunctioning.

So far as I know, the connection has yet to be made in canon, although I'm inclined to accept it until we learn otherwise.

 

[David cgc]

On the other hand, I subscribe to the idea that Excelsior's new engine was a rousing (or at least partial) success, so much so that it stopped being trans-warp and just became warp. Of course, there was that small matter of the power-consumption curves of the new engine leading to a recalibration of the warp scale in the early 24th century, but nine warp factors should be enough for anyone, right?

It's hard to get traction, since the "transwarp was a bust" theory is endorsed by many official sources like the Chronology and Encyclopedia, but it doesn't contradict anything on-screen. Especially since TNG and Voyager pretty well established that "transwarp" was a fairly generic term for better-than-warp FTL drives.

 

[Avro Arrow]

That makes more sense than the Enterprise, which had problems, but not a shipwide systemic failure in STV.

Yeah, I have to say that I'm not seeing how what we saw in TFF would count as a "systems-wide technological failure", by any stretch of the imagination.

To me, that phrase sounds much more applicable to what we saw happen to the Saratoga (and others) in TVH, but since that happens earlier than TFF, it doesn't help the dating situation any.

 

[David Strickhouser]

Of course, there was that small matter of the power-consumption curves of the new engine leading to a recalibration of the warp scale in the early 24th century, but nine warp factors should be enough for anyone, right?

I would add that the warp recalibration would also explain the reset of the stardate system to the five digits familiar in TNG, allowing for the possibility of some five-digit stardates (in the 10000-12000 range, post TUC) before the recalibration.

 

[Idran]

I would add that the warp recalibration would also explain the reset of the stardate system to the five digits familiar in TNG, allowing for the possibility of some five-digit stardates (in the 10000-12000 range, post TUC) before the recalibration.

I wouldn't think there was an outright reset, since the absolute last thing you ever want to do from a logistical perspective in any dating system is allow for overlap in values, and TOS-era stardates have been referenced in 24th century on-screen media without any sort of identifier or call-out of it being under a previous system. (In fact, "Trials and Tribble-ations" would seem to outright negate any chance of that, since Sisko mentioned the "Trouble with Tribbles" stardate, and Lucsly and Dulmur knew exactly what calendar date it was instantaneously without needing clarification of era.) I think it's more likely that there was an adjustment of rate at some convenient crossover point that allowed for a relatively smooth transition, just because that would've been the more sensible way of doing it. Something like the Julian/Gregorian transition, though perhaps less abrupt, something interpolative or something between the two systems.

"Stardate system X officially ends on SD #####, and a transition system will be used until SD #####, at which point system Y will take over." Something like that.

 

[WebLurker]

I wouldn't think there was an outright reset, since the absolute last thing you ever want to do from a logistical perspective in any dating system is allow for overlap in values, and TOS-era stardates have been referenced in 24th century on-screen media without any sort of identifier or call-out of it being under a previous system. (In fact, "Trials and Tribble-ations" would seem to outright negate any chance of that, since Sisko mentioned the "Trouble with Tribbles" stardate, and Lucsly and Dulmur knew exactly what calendar date it was instantaneously without needing clarification of era.) I think it's more likely that there was an adjustment of rate at some convenient crossover point that allowed for a relatively smooth transition, just because that would've been the more sensible way of doing it. Something like the Julian/Gregorian transition, though perhaps less abrupt, something interpolative or something between the two systems.

"Stardate system X officially ends on SD #####, and a transition system will be used until SD #####, at which point system Y will take over." Something like that.

Or maybe it's all part of the same system, but we didn't see enough examples or understand the computation to see how the bridging point worked?

 

[Christopher]

I wouldn't think there was an outright reset, since the absolute last thing you ever want to do from a logistical perspective in any dating system is allow for overlap in values, and TOS-era stardates have been referenced in 24th century on-screen media without any sort of identifier or call-out of it being under a previous system. (In fact, "Trials and Tribble-ations" would seem to outright negate any chance of that, since Sisko mentioned the "Trouble with Tribbles" stardate, and Lucsly and Dulmur knew exactly what calendar date it was instantaneously without needing clarification of era.)

Except that they already knew the era. Sisko told them that the Defiant had encountered the Constitution-class Enterprise, and then they asked for the date. So they would've known from that context that it was Stardate 4523.7 in the old system that prevailed while Kirk was captain of the Enterprise, rather than 4523.7 in the new system that was introduced in the 24th century.

Granted, one would expect Sisko to have given some additional indicator, like if you mention that something happened in the 4th century BCE rather than CE. But maybe he just forgot.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Except that they already knew the era. Sisko told them that the Defiant had encountered the Constitution-class Enterprise, and then they asked for the date. So they would've known from that context that it was Stardate 4523.7 in the old system that prevailed while Kirk was captain of the Enterprise, rather than 4523.7 in the new system that was introduced in the 24th century.

Granted, one would expect Sisko to have given some additional indicator, like if you mention that something happened in the 4th century BCE rather than CE. But maybe he just forgot.

Given DTI's disdain for Kirk's messing with time, I imagine it's word association (or in this case, number association) that made them recognize it instantly. If nothing immediately recognizable happened on the other stardate, why wouldn't you associate it with Kirk?

 

[Christopher]

Given DTI's disdain for Kirk's messing with time, I imagine it's word association (or in this case, number association) that made them recognize it instantly. If nothing immediately recognizable happened on the other stardate, why wouldn't you associate it with Kirk?

As I said -- Sisko had told them just seconds before that he had encountered the Constitution-class Enterprise. That wasn't a guess or an extrapolation, it was a fact that had just been explicitly stated in the conversation. So when they asked for the stardate a moment later, they already knew it was a 23rd-century stardate.

 

[BobtheGunslinge]

Are any of the Movie Era TOS books good at capturing the Meyersverse feel? Are there any Lost era stories or Captain Sulu stories that explore Starfleet and the Federation in their Horatio Hornblower's Cold War period? I'd love to read some more non-technicolor TOS stuff, like Vanguard but with more of the TUC flavor. Also, I'm bored reading about Old Kirk, Old Spock, and Old McCoy and their Canon-Respecting Reset Button Adventures.

That's also the point in having the license. "Mostly kinda original works set vaguely in the Star Trek universe, mainly about some other dudes and dudettes, with some cameos by people you remember if you are lucky" is not written or even implied. )

It's funny you should say that since your description perfectly sums up all the old numbered books that felt like half baked trek title characters forced into distinctly unTrek-like generic sci fi stories. The post relaunch series actually capture the feeling of new Trek stories and new Trek characters without leaning too hard on the tired tropes and worn out characters of the old series. Riker on the Enterprise is tired and sad. His story doesn't matter, because you know he'll be the same next week in time for the next episode. Riker, the Admiral on the Titan, is fresh and exciting, and noticeably the same character just out of his depressing career funk. His stories matter because consequences carry over.

Some stories set during the show would be fine, so long as the stories benefitted from that placement, but undoing years of progress with the setting and characters would be novelverse franchise suicide.

 

[David cgc]

Are any of the Movie Era TOS books good at capturing the Meyersverse feel? Are there any Lost era stories or Captain Sulu stories that explore Starfleet and the Federation in their Horatio Hornblower's Cold War period? I'd love to read some more non-technicolor TOS stuff, like Vanguard but with more of the TUC flavor. Also, I'm bored reading about Old Kirk, Old Spock, and Old McCoy and their Canon-Respecting Reset Button Adventures.

It'd been a long time since I read it, but I seem to remember the movie-era sections of "War Dragons" feeling pretty natural in a TUC-style setting.

 

[Idran]

Except that they already knew the era. Sisko told them that the Defiant had encountered the Constitution-class Enterprise, and then they asked for the date. So they would've known from that context that it was Stardate 4523.7 in the old system that prevailed while Kirk was captain of the Enterprise, rather than 4523.7 in the new system that was introduced in the 24th century.

Granted, one would expect Sisko to have given some additional indicator, like if you mention that something happened in the 4th century BCE rather than CE. But maybe he just forgot.

Oh, bah, that's right; I had the order mixed around in my head. I thought he gave the stardate first.

 

[jaime]

Are any of the Movie Era TOS books good at capturing the Meyersverse feel? Are there any Lost era stories or Captain Sulu stories that explore Starfleet and the Federation in their Horatio Hornblower's Cold War period? I'd love to read some more non-technicolor TOS stuff, like Vanguard but with more of the TUC flavor. Also, I'm bored reading about Old Kirk, Old Spock, and Old McCoy and their Canon-Respecting Reset Button Adventures.





It's funny you should say that since your description perfectly sums up all the old numbered books that felt like half baked trek title characters forced into distinctly unTrek-like generic sci fi stories. The post relaunch series actually capture the feeling of new Trek stories and new Trek characters without leaning too hard on the tired tropes and worn out characters of the old series. Riker on the Enterprise is tired and sad. His story doesn't matter, because you know he'll be the same next week in time for the next episode. Riker, the Admiral on the Titan, is fresh and exciting, and noticeably the same character just out of his depressing career funk. His stories matter because consequences carry over.

Some stories set during the show would be fine, so long as the stories benefitted from that placement, but undoing years of progress with the setting and characters would be novelverse franchise suicide.

Oh i dont mean ditch the relaunch nd go nackbto stories set in TV continuity, (though now and then would not hurt at all. And shoukdnt need a flashback framing device ) i just mean make the focal points those TV characters. Deep space nine, while it has its plus points, has been drifting further and further from that. Though arguably that was about a place, implicit in the title, and TNG was implicitly about a group of people. We are already waiting years between stories, so they need to be satisfying when they turn up..and i think that focus has been spiralling further and further away.

And going back to TOS movie era...i am not sure doing one book here and there and then deciding that its the TV era people want not movie era, is a fair test. In this age of ebook serials, at the right price i would happily be buying a post TMP book a month, and the same for the BennetVerse. At the momemt the post TNG era books are splintered, with onky Voyager managing to hold its course, and the TOS books are making the five year suffer serious time dilation. Its like the TV series heartbeat...a series set in the sixties that went on so long it probably lasted more than the decade. Theres no christmas set TOS books to count, or we would know when the mission was over.

I have already preordered this years crossover stuff...the Ent E and A on a cover looks promising. But i am getting it not because of crossovers (usually a bad idea and almost always shakey to fit int canon. Federation lasted about a year before First Contact flushed it.) but because its the A.

Stopping hiving characters off and getting them bacj in meaningful storylines would be good too. Data...Bashir...the way characters sod off midway through book a to appear in book b that wont be published for a year is just awkward.

Theres fine wrotob and finebstories being told, but theres functional misfires happening at the moment.

 

[JD]

It's not really the book's fault that a lot of the TV series characters have moved on, they are simply following on from where the TV shows and movies left them. I'd rather see that, than have the writers comes up with convoluted ridiculous excuses to undo the ends of the shows/movies.
I'll admit, none of the current new TNG and DS9 characters are as great as some of the older characters, but I'm still pretty happy with what we've gotten in them.

 

[Thrawn]

It's funny you should say that since your description perfectly sums up all the old numbered books that felt like half baked trek title characters forced into distinctly unTrek-like generic sci fi stories. The post relaunch series actually capture the feeling of new Trek stories and new Trek characters without leaning too hard on the tired tropes and worn out characters of the old series. Riker on the Enterprise is tired and sad. His story doesn't matter, because you know he'll be the same next week in time for the next episode. Riker, the Admiral on the Titan, is fresh and exciting, and noticeably the same character just out of his depressing career funk. His stories matter because consequences carry over.

Some stories set during the show would be fine, so long as the stories benefitted from that placement, but undoing years of progress with the setting and characters would be novelverse franchise suicide.

Spot. On.

Very well put.

 

[Greg Cox]

and the TOS books are making the five year suffer serious time dilation. Its like the TV series heartbeat...a series set in the sixties that went on so long it probably lasted more than the decade.
.

I figure that if Nancy Drew and the Hardy Boys can cram an infinite number of cases into high school, then STAR TREK can cram an infinite number of missions into a five-year-mission.

Seriously, any sufficiently long-running series or characters require a certain suspension of disbelief. How is Doc Savage still having cramming more world-spanning adventures into the 1930s? Why did Kolchak keep running into monsters everywhere he went?

And need I mention Jessica Fletcher? Just how many puzzling murders occur in the quaint little town of Cabot Cove every year anyway?

(And, yes, the MURDER SHE WROTE novels are still going strong.)

 

[RandyS]

I figure that if Nancy Drew and the Hardy Boys can cram an infinite number of cases into high school, then STAR TREK can cram an infinite number of missions into a five-year-mission.

Seriously, any sufficiently long-running series or characters require a certain suspension of disbelief. How is Doc Savage still having cramming more world-spanning adventures into the 1930s? Why did Kolchak keep running into monsters everywhere he went?

And need I mention Jessica Fletcher? Just how many puzzling murders occur in the quaint little town of Cabot Cove every year anyway?

(And, yes, the MURDER SHE WROTE novels are still going strong.)

Good examples, and excellent points as to why we need the 24th century books to return to the series time frames (at least on occasion).

And yes Greg, I'm well aware that was not the point you were trying to make.

 

[Idran]

I'm not sure it even makes that point at all. All Greg's post does is show how it's possible, it's not really any sort of argument for if it should or shouldn't be done.

 

[Greg Cox]

I'm not sure it even makes that point at all. All Greg's post does is show how it's possible, it's not really any sort of argument for if it should or shouldn't be done.

My only point was that this is just how long-running series tend to work, so I don't worry about ever running out of room for new adventures in the 5YM mission anymore than I worry about just how many innocent-clients-accused-of-murder Perry Mason could realistically take on over the course of an ordinary legal career . ....

To me, that's never been a valid argument for not doing more TOS books. It's like arguing that Spider-Man ought to be on Medicare by now because he was in high school back in the sixties and I remember him cracking jokes about Nixon and Watergate and such . . ..

To quote Uhura: "This isn't reality. This is fantasy!"

 

[David Strickhouser]

We must suspend disbelief and not get caught up in the minutiae of it all, correct?