Dear TOS novel writers, it's not you. It's me.

[Christopher]

About the only TFF-era novel we ever saw during the Ordover regime was Probe, but that book was first commissioned way back during Dave Stern's time as editor, and got grandfathered in through a ton of rewrites by various authors.

Not to mention that it was pretty clearly meant to be a post-TVH novel, but got delayed until after TFF and thus had a couple of cursory references to TFF thrown in.

From what Christopher has told us, his upcoming TOS novel (The Face of the Unknown) was originally intended to be set post-The Motion Picture, but Pocket Books requested a 5YM-timeframe instead, to tie into the 50th anniversary festivities this year.

I wouldn't say "intended" so much as "suggested" or "hoped," since that idea was shot down immediately. The original proposal years before then was actually for a Titan novel with a post-TMP Enterprise flashback. That got sidetracked by other projects and fell through the cracks when Marco Palmieri's tenure ended. By the time I put together the outline for TFotU based on elements of that proposal and one or two other unused ideas, it had already been decided that it should be 5YM.

 

[jaime]

If they knew going in that it was set after the show, then I don't see why they wouldn't enjoy it. If they go in not knowing, then that's their own fault for not paying attention to what they were buying. Like I said before, the books that are set after the shows tend to make it pretty clear, so it doesn't take much effort to figure out what books are after and which books are during the shows.

The front cover uses the title of the show, the blurb says something along the lines of 'continuing' . It's not overt, and I would assume the point in these books is having someone buy and read them. That's also the point in having the license. "Mostly kinda original works set vaguely in the Star Trek universe, mainly about some other dudes and dudettes, with some cameos by people you remember if you are lucky" is not written or even implied. (Hyperbole for humours sake. Unless it's Sisko. He's a desk jockey and professional moper on a ship with an identity crisis these days. )

 

[David cgc]

I'm wondering what someone who did just finish DS9 or TNG+Flims and wanting to jump into the novelverse would be expecting. In both those cases, several major characters had already been dispersed. Would they anticipate the books had contrived ways to reassembled the original crews? That things are right where they were left, with the Enterprise having Picard, Worf, LaForge, and Crusher, with the cast filled-out by some randos (which, admittedly, is what they'd get), and DS9 having Kira, Jake, Quark, Bashir, and Dax (no Odo or Sisko, though)?

 

[JD]

I went into the DS9 and TNG relaunches expecting to see new characters come in to replace the people who left.

 

[Idran]

I mean, yeah, a big thing in the last episode of DS9 was about how half the main characters were moving on to other things. Why would someone going into a continuation of DS9 think that they'd all be back and in the same place that they were? I don't see how anyone would assume after "What You Leave Behind" that a book set after that episode would just be more of the same, since the same was straight up over. There is no more same to be after that.

 

[Jinn]

Well the Voyager relaunch kept most of its original cast save for Neelix and Kes obviously.

 

[stardream]

Well the Voyager relaunch kept most of its original cast save for Neelix and Kes obviously.

They still manage to show up from time to time.

 

[WebLurker]

The preference for 5-year-mission novels has been around for decades. Even at the very start of Pocket's line, only a few novels were overtly set post-TMP, and even those didn't do much with the setting, basically just telling 5YM-style stories but with higher ranks for the supporting characters. There have been a fair number of novels set in the era of TWOK and subsequent movies, but little interest in the post-TMP period. I explored that period in Ex Machina, which I hoped would be the start of a series, but the sales weren't strong enough to warrant a continuation.

Maybe TMP's lesser popularity has something to do with it? Also, with the dates provided, there's not a lot of space for stories, since the hypothetical second five-year mission has been disproven (didn't one of the movies indicate that Kirk was working behind the desk and briefly retired between TMP and TWOK?).

Oddly, it used to be quite different in the comics. The first Marvel TOS comic and both of DC's TOS series were set primarily or exclusively in the movie era. Marvel didn't have a choice, since their license was solely to TMP-related stuff, but DC had carte blanche to the whole franchise and still preferentially set their comics in the "present" of the movie era. And yet, pretty much right after Generations came out and ended the movie era, that stopped. Most of the TOS comics stories published from 1995 onward have been set during the 5-year mission. I find it odd that the novels have always had a preference for 5YM stories with occasional brief forays into the movie era, while the comics were overwhelmingly movie-era while the movies were being made and then overwhelmingly 5YM thereafter. Maybe it's because the comics, as a monthly, ongoing narrative, were seen more as something that happened in "real time" and had to stay current with what was happening in the movies, something that ceased to be the case once the TOS movies were over.

I'd buy that. Also, I'd guess that TOS-era books remain popular is because that's one of the most beloved eras in the franchise. I myself tend to prefer that over the movies era for books. Those stories tend to feel more like stories for the sake of stories, rather than connective tissue for the movies (no offense).

 

[David cgc]

Maybe TMP's lesser popularity has something to do with it? Also, with the dates provided, there's not a lot of space for stories, since the hypothetical second five-year mission has been disproven (didn't one of the movies indicate that Kirk was working behind the desk and briefly retired between TMP and TWOK?).

I've figured that if they wanted to do a significant number of movie-era stories, they could work out an "A Time To..."-style plot nailing down the high points of what happened when in the dozen years between TMP and TWOK and the six between TFF and TUC (when and for how long Kirk temporarily retired between TMP and TWOK, when Chekov and Sulu left, any original plot-points they want to add). Not for necessarily for an epic miniseries that would happen then be finished, but just so all the authors could be on the same page in what's largely a canonical no-man's-land.

We've seen a few attempts to fill in large swathes of the missing time, like in "Crucible" or the "New Earth" miniseries, but those have always felt a little anticlimactic to me, just because addressing such a large period under one mission seems to imply the sort of ennui Kirk describes at the beginning of STB. Like, an entire year of the period between TMP and TWOK was taken up just by the Enterprise traveling to and from Belle Terre? How many adventures could fit into a year?

I feel like there's space to tell a couple of epic, ongoing sagas with the TOS crew over the course of the two big inter-movie gaps, in the style of the 22nd and 24th century novelverse or the book-only series, with lots of juicy long-term changes and character development.

 

[JD]

^ I've felt the same way for a long time now. Those two gaps really are the perfect places to fit in the kind of big arcs we've never really gotten for the TOS characters since DC's comics ended.

 

[Christopher]

Maybe TMP's lesser popularity has something to do with it? Also, with the dates provided, there's not a lot of space for stories, since the hypothetical second five-year mission has been disproven (didn't one of the movies indicate that Kirk was working behind the desk and briefly retired between TMP and TWOK?).

Huh? "Disproven?" Where in the world did you get that idea? On the contrary, there have been a number of post-TMP novels -- not a large percentage of the hundreds that are out there, but a fair number. And the post-TMP 5-year mission is actually part of the current novel continuity, because that continuity includes The Captain's Daughter, the first John Harriman/Demora Sulu novel and the foundation for their characterizations in later works. That book posits a 5YM from 2273-78, with Sulu planning to transfer to the Bozeman just afterward but having to stay on Earth to take care of Demora, coincidentally saving him from being lost with that ship. I've also referenced that second 5YM in my post-TMP works. In The Darkness Drops Again, I established that after 2278, Kirk was promoted back to the admiralty but got to keep the Enterprise as his personal flagship with Spock in command, occasionally taking it out on special missions. (I felt that the events of TWOK could be seen as an example of one such mission.)

As for Kirk's retirement mentioned in Generations, it ended in 2284, but the movie is vague about when it started. We know he met Antonia in 2282 while he was visiting his uncle in Idaho, but the film does not say whether he was already retired or retired later in order to be with Antonia. I've always assumed the latter.

Also, I'd guess that TOS-era books remain popular is because that's one of the most beloved eras in the franchise. I myself tend to prefer that over the movies era for books. Those stories tend to feel more like stories for the sake of stories, rather than connective tissue for the movies (no offense).

Except there's 12 years between TMP and TWOK, per the novel continuity. That's a huge amount of room to tell stories that are a lot more than "connective tissue." There are also at least 6 years between TFF and TUC. (The Chronology puts TFF in 2287, presumably since Nimbus III is said to be 20 years old and had to be founded after contact with the Romulans was renewed in 2266. But that makes no sense given the intervals between movies; I can't see it happening any later than early 2286.)

I've figured that if they wanted to do a significant number of movie-era stories, they could work out an "A Time To..."-style plot nailing down the high points of what happened when in the dozen years between TMP and TWOK...

That's pretty much what I wanted to do in the series that Ex Machina was the "pilot" for. I've managed to sneak bits of it into Darkness Drops and DTI: Forgotten History.

 

[WebLurker]

Huh? "Disproven?" Where in the world did you get that idea?

From the Star Trek Chronologies. Going off of memory the first edition placed a second five-year mission between the first two movies (with the note that it wasn't a canonical event, but this's were it would've happened, it was "real"). The second edition dropped that entry entirely, replacing it with stuff about Kirk's career, so I assumed that the possibility of a second mission was scrapped. If I'm wrong about that, okay.

On the contrary, there have been a number of post-TMP novels -- not a large percentage of the hundreds that are out there, but a fair number. And the post-TMP 5-year mission is actually part of the current novel continuity, because that continuity includes The Captain's Daughter, the first John Harriman/Demora Sulu novel and the foundation for their characterizations in later works. That book posits a 5YM from 2273-78, with Sulu planning to transfer to the Bozeman just afterward but having to stay on Earth to take care of Demora, coincidentally saving him from being lost with that ship.

To play Devil's advocate, not all the older novels in the current "novel canon" fit 100%. For example, Peter David tied his old TNG novel, Vendetta, into the current novel series with Before Dishonor, ignoring that many of the details in the former conflict with canon and later books. So, I could see an older book that used the second mission being in "novel canon," even if we had to ignore some of the specific parts, like the mission.

Along the same lines, in some of your own writings, you've included references to one of my favorite TOS numbered novels, First Frontier (the one where the crew go back in time to the dinosaurs, thanks to the Clan Ru space raptors). However, the depiction of Vulcan in the human-less timeline of First Frontier is essentially the TOS version of them and ENT argues that without humans, Vulcan culture would've stayed the more aggressive types that V'Las wanted his world to be. (In fact, I think your depiction of a human-less Star Trek galaxy in the second DTI novel is closer to what you'd really get.) However, we gloss over First Fontier's problems and assume that the overall story is correct, even if we ignore some parts.

I've also referenced that second 5YM in my post-TMP works. In The Darkness Drops Again, I established that after 2278, Kirk was promoted back to the admiralty but got to keep the Enterprise as his personal flagship with Spock in command, occasionally taking it out on special missions. (I felt that the events of TWOK could be seen as an example of one such mission.)

Interesting retcon. Out of curiosity, is there a specific reason that it's desired to have a second TOS mission in the novel continuity?

Along the same lines, as a Star Trek novelist, how do you pick which elements from older books that don't quite mesh to fudge into the current continuity and which ones should be left alone. I mean, I haven't seen any attempts to try and reconcile Final Frontier or Strangers From the Sky in the current novel continuity. They're just left as older books that stand alone.

Except there's 12 years between TMP and TWOK, per the novel continuity. That's a huge amount of room to tell stories that are a lot more than "connective tissue."

Sure. That's just been my general impression of the stuff in that era I've read (and other eras have their connective tissue, too). Of course, I do have my biases. But, it seems like a lot of movie era books are sequels to TV shows and stuff.

There are also at least 6 years between TFF and TUC. (The Chronology puts TFF in 2287, presumably since Nimbus III is said to be 20 years old and had to be founded after contact with the Romulans was renewed in 2266. But that makes no sense given the intervals between movies; I can't see it happening any later than early 2286.)

Why 2286?




That's pretty much what I wanted to do in the series that Ex Machina was the "pilot" for. I've managed to sneak bits of it into Darkness Drops and DTI: Forgotten History.[/QUOTE]

 

[Christopher]

From the Star Trek Chronologies. Going off of memory the first edition placed a second five-year mission between the first two movies (with the note that it wasn't a canonical event, but this's were it would've happened, it was "real"). The second edition dropped that entry entirely, replacing it with stuff about Kirk's career, so I assumed that the possibility of a second mission was scrapped. If I'm wrong about that, okay.

The Chronology is not canonical gospel. It's an interpretation, like anything else. It states explicitly that its interpolations of events between canonical episodes and films are merely conjecture and are not meant to stifle other people's creativity. (Note that some of the STC's conjectures were contradicted by later canon. The first edition put Cochrane's first warp flight in 2061, and First Contact made it 2063. And it put the end of the 5YM in 2269, but Voyager later established that it was 2270.)

To play Devil's advocate, not all the older novels in the current "novel canon" fit 100%. For example, Peter David tied his old TNG novel, Vendetta, into the current novel series with Before Dishonor, ignoring that many of the details in the former conflict with canon and later books. So, I could see an older book that used the second mission being in "novel canon," even if we had to ignore some of the specific parts, like the mission.

But there is absolutely no reason to discount further missions post-TMP, whether a 5YM or Crucible's 7-year mission or something else. It makes zero sense to assume that Kirk, immediately after fighting passionately to get out from behind a desk and reclaim starship command in TMP, would then abruptly give it up again and spend the next 12 years doing nothing but sitting behind a desk. The more reasonable assumption, and the one that's been all but universally accepted by tie-in authors working in the period, is that there was a years-long post-TMP mission before Kirk went back to the admiralty.

Along the same lines, in some of your own writings, you've included references to one of my favorite TOS numbered novels, First Frontier (the one where the crew go back in time to the dinosaurs, thanks to the Clan Ru space raptors). However, the depiction of Vulcan in the human-less timeline of First Frontier is essentially the TOS version of them and ENT argues that without humans, Vulcan culture would've stayed the more aggressive types that V'Las wanted his world to be. (In fact, I think your depiction of a human-less Star Trek galaxy in the second DTI novel is closer to what you'd really get.) However, we gloss over First Fontier's problems and assume that the overall story is correct, even if we ignore some parts.

Just because the First Frontier timeline and the Forgotten History timeline both lack humans, that doesn't require that Vulcan history had to go exactly the same way in both. It's quite egocentric to assume that human existence or nonexistence is the only factor that could possibly affect Vulcan history. It's quite possible that in the FF alternate history, the Kir'Shara was never lost, or the Syrranites managed to rediscover it without Archer's help. I established in Uncertain Logic that the Vulcan aggressiveness of the High Command era was the result of cultural and political influence by Romulan infiltrators; if history had been altered in such a way that that infiltration never happened, then the Vulcans would not have gone down that path to the same extent. There are countless ways it could've gone differently.

Interesting retcon. Out of curiosity, is there a specific reason that it's desired to have a second TOS mission in the novel continuity?

I already gave the reason -- because PAD said there was one in The Captain's Daughter, and a lot of modern-continuity books have referenced TCD.

Along the same lines, as a Star Trek novelist, how do you pick which elements from older books that don't quite mesh to fudge into the current continuity and which ones should be left alone. I mean, I haven't seen any attempts to try and reconcile Final Frontier or Strangers From the Sky in the current novel continuity. They're just left as older books that stand alone.

For me, if a book contains an overt, major contradiction with canon or the novel continuity, then I simply count it as separate. I only refer back to older novels that I feel are still consistent. Other novelists seem more willing to reference elements of older books that do have inconsistencies, but I see that more as paying homage than anything else.

Why 2286?

TWOK/TSFS are 2285. TWOK is generally assumed to begin on March 22, since Kirk's birthday is equated to Shatner's. So TSFS is probably in April. TVH is explicitly 3 months later, so maybe July '85. The trial takes an unspecified amount of time, but it's unlikely to be months, and the book The Genesis Wave contains a reference setting it only a couple of weeks after the main events of the film. The interval between TVH and TFF seems very short, but Harve Bennett has said there was a 6-month shakedown cruise between them, so that pushes it to January or February 2286. I just can't see pushing it all the way to 2287. The Chronology's conjectural dating of the movie era has never made sense to me.

 

[David Strickhouser]

There seems to be plenty of storytelling opportunities in the post-TMP, pre-TWOK era. The Kirk autobiography by Goodman elaborates on a second five-year mission; the characters are a little more seasoned, and there's plenty of adventuring to do.
Stories set between TFF and TUC would be a shorter window; Sulu would be departing in this period to captain the Excelsior (DC Comics handled that by bringing Saavik back as helm/junior science officer), and the aging of the characters could be addressed, as well as Kirk's enmity toward the Klingons at this point in time.
Both periods are still ripe for "exploring".

 

[Dayton Ward]

[shameless]

See, "Honor, In the Name of"

[/shameless]

 

[Leto_II]

TWOK/TSFS are 2285. TWOK is generally assumed to begin on March 22, since Kirk's birthday is equated to Shatner's. So TSFS is probably in April. TVH is explicitly 3 months later, so maybe July '85. The trial takes an unspecified amount of time, but it's unlikely to be months, and the book The Genesis Wave contains a reference setting it only a couple of weeks after the main events of the film. The interval between TVH and TFF seems very short, but Harve Bennett has said there was a 6-month shakedown cruise between them, so that pushes it to January or February 2286. I just can't see pushing it all the way to 2287. The Chronology's conjectural dating of the movie era has never made sense to me.

Although there's also that onscreen dialogue-reference in TNG "Evolution," referring to the events of TFF, which would approximately place it in early 2287. And if you count the first eight issues or so of DC TOS Vol. 1 in your personal continuity, that pushes The Search For Spock back into late 2285 a significant degree, which lets The Voyage Home just barely slide over into 2286 when the three-month Vulcan exile is factored in.

as well as Kirk's enmity toward the Klingons at this point in time.

Yeah, Dayton's novel has gotcha covered on that one.

 

[Greg Cox]

.

Other novelists seem more willing to reference elements of older books that do have inconsistencies, but I see that more as paying homage than anything else.

Exactly. I remember being taken slightly aback, after referencing Yesterday's Son in No Time Like the Past, to see posts and reviews proclaiming that I had "officially" restored that book to the novel continuity. To be honest, I hadn't been aware that it had ever gone missing.

Nor had I intended to "officially" make some sweeping move that would be binding on all other TREK authors henceforth. Ann Crispin had recently passed away and it had felt weird to revisit Sarpeidon without acknowledging her, so I did so.

Nothing more complicated than that.

 

[Idran]

Although there's also that onscreen dialogue-reference in TNG "Evolution," referring to the events of TFF, which would approximately place it in early 2287.

To be fair, all that reference means is that some ship had a "systems-wide technological failure" in early 2287. The text of the episode doesn't preclude TFF happening earlier and another ship having one off screen.

 

[Leto_II]

Given what we know about Michael Piller, though (and the fact that TFF had hit theaters only a month or two before "Evolution" aired), we can pretty much safely assume he was referring to the Enterprise-A with that line of dialogue, as a "nod" to the then-just-released latest movie. This is probably one of the dating-referents used by the Okudas when calculating that film's chronology-placement (along with the "Balance of Terror"/Nimbus III information).

 

[Christopher]

Even if the behind-the-scenes intent was for that to be a nod to TFF, it doesn't count unless they explicitly tied it to that in onscreen dialogue, and they didn't.

And really, it's annoying when the only historical events that ever get referenced in Star Trek are ones that we happened to see in previous episodes. The universe shouldn't be that small and incestuous. There has to be stuff happening to ships that aren't named Enterprise.