DC Teases "The Death of Oracle"

[Professor Zoom]

I can't see how any of this is correct, the first title to be published with an Elseworlds logo was 'Batman: Holy Terror' which came out in 1991 (Yes 'Gotham by Gaslight' came out first but it does not have the logo) 'The Killing Joke' was released in 1988.

I've never seen a house ad or a single printing with the Elseworlds logo on it nor any indication in interviews that this was suppose to occur anywhere but in the regular DCU. The idea that is it or was suppose to be an Elseworlds seems to be an urban myth.

Huh. Must've got some wires crossed there. I did read KJ about a month ago, and I read something that had an Elseworlds logo on it in the same timeframe--although I guess that isn't particularly noteworthy.

Alan Moore has stated repeatedly that KJ was intended to be an Elseworlds in interviews. They may not have had the logo, but they have had the concept since the late '40s, calling them 'Imaginary Stories.'

Aren't they ALL imaginary?

 

[JoeZhang]

I can't see how any of this is correct, the first title to be published with an Elseworlds logo was 'Batman: Holy Terror' which came out in 1991 (Yes 'Gotham by Gaslight' came out first but it does not have the logo) 'The Killing Joke' was released in 1988.

I've never seen a house ad or a single printing with the Elseworlds logo on it nor any indication in interviews that this was suppose to occur anywhere but in the regular DCU. The idea that is it or was suppose to be an Elseworlds seems to be an urban myth.

Huh. Must've got some wires crossed there. I did read KJ about a month ago, and I read something that had an Elseworlds logo on it in the same timeframe--although I guess that isn't particularly noteworthy.

Alan Moore has stated repeatedly that KJ was intended to be an Elseworlds in interviews. They may not have had the logo, but they have had the concept since the late '40s, calling them 'Imaginary Stories.'

Can you point to one of these interviews?

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Wikipedia cites this review of Batman: Gotham Knights #12 as proof that Alan Moore intended for The Killing Joke to be an "Imaginary Story":

Let's get this out of the way first. There is absolutely no reason why Barbara Gordon should be in a wheelchair. Alan Moore and Brian Bolland meant The Killing Joke as an imaginary tale dealing with the iconography of Batman and the Joker. This is evinced by the appearances of Bat-Mite, Bat-Girl and Batwoman in a photograph. Barbara also according to Mr. Moore knew Batman's identity before DC ever admitted that she knew Batman's identity. In fact, you will find instances where Oracle doesn't know Batman's identity. DC's thinking seemed to be that it's all right to cripple the poor woman, but cosmos forbid that she learns Batman's "precious" secrets.

DC may have thought it was a good idea to incorporate this non-canonical story, or rather parts of it, into the proper continuity--loosely speaking, but they really did not think things through.

There's some discussion spinning off of that quote here. (It looks like a quote that Ray C. Tate kept handy to drop into discussions about The Killing Joke and continuity.) There's further discussion on it here.

I can see the argument that Moore intended for The Killing Joke to be an archetypal Batman story. But it's DC Comics, not Moore, that owns the characters and has the final say. DC decided otherwise, that Killing Joke could fit into continuity, and for John Ostrander, turning Barbara into Oracle was making the best of the bad situation left behind by The Killing Joke.

 

[Mr Light]

At what point did her crippling enter into the continuity?

 

[Silvercrest]

Well, John introduced the character of Oracle in mid-late 1988 and revealed her as Barbara by early 1989. That would probably be it, unless she made any other post-KJ appearances. (?)

 

[JoeZhang]

Wikipedia cites this review of Batman: Gotham Knights #12 as proof that Alan Moore intended for The Killing Joke to be an "Imaginary Story":

Let's get this out of the way first. There is absolutely no reason why Barbara Gordon should be in a wheelchair. Alan Moore and Brian Bolland meant The Killing Joke as an imaginary tale dealing with the iconography of Batman and the Joker. This is evinced by the appearances of Bat-Mite, Bat-Girl and Batwoman in a photograph. Barbara also according to Mr. Moore knew Batman's identity before DC ever admitted that she knew Batman's identity. In fact, you will find instances where Oracle doesn't know Batman's identity. DC's thinking seemed to be that it's all right to cripple the poor woman, but cosmos forbid that she learns Batman's "precious" secrets.

DC may have thought it was a good idea to incorporate this non-canonical story, or rather parts of it, into the proper continuity--loosely speaking, but they really did not think things through.

There's some discussion spinning off of that quote here. (It looks like a quote that Ray C. Tate kept handy to drop into discussions about The Killing Joke and continuity.) There's further discussion on it here.

I can see the argument that Moore intended for The Killing Joke to be an archetypal Batman story. But it's DC Comics, not Moore, that owns the characters and has the final say. DC decided otherwise, that Killing Joke could fit into continuity, and for John Ostrander, turning Barbara into Oracle was making the best of the bad situation left behind by The Killing Joke.

And yet I can find nothing from either Moore or Bolland that supports this reading, both talk about wanting to a Batman comic together, neither in any interview I've ever read do they suggest this. More than this, I doubt either actually cared so as you say it comes down to DC Editorial.


I also don't understand what people get hooked up on that photo, it's only a year after Crisis, so it's actually not clear who does exist or who does not - or again that Moore even cares about that. Some of these characters are later written (or it's mentioned in lettercolumns) as not existing but that at that time it's all up in the air.

 

[jadcox@mindspring.com]

I know this is a rather lonely opinion, but I'd love to see Dick Grayson and Babs replace Ralph and Sue as DC's token happy, well-adjusted married couple.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

I know this is a rather lonely opinion, but I'd love to see Dick Grayson and Babs replace Ralph and Sue as DC's token happy, well-adjusted married couple.

Well with the coming return of Bruce Wayne and Dick staying in the batsuit for now this could be a good way to explore a possibly happier Batman while still keeping the regular brooding one.

 

[coolghoul]

I know this is a rather lonely opinion, but I'd love to see Dick Grayson and Babs replace Ralph and Sue as DC's token happy, well-adjusted married couple.

After what happened to Sue (from way back in Identity Crisis) and all the black lantern business, I think we can safely say that the token happy, well-adjusted married couple is no longer happy or well-adjusted for a fairly long time.

And I hadn't heard of cracks in the Supes-Lois marriage. But I haven't payed attention to the New Krypton and the Walkabout stuff.

Who else is married? Lots of stuff going on with Aquaman and Mera but not sure where that's headed... Anybody else that I'm missing?

Back to Oracle - I was reading something about how there's somebody else called "proxy" that Batgirl is using who is kinda an Oracle-like character. So, I guess this proxy is going to proxy for Oracle. (*groan* - that *was* an awful pun).

Edit - And talking of Dick as Batman, I quite enjoyed Batman: Long Shadows which I read recently (to me, it was more fun than Batman & Robin or the plot-heavy Red Robin trades that I've read recently).

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Back to Oracle - I was reading something about how there's somebody else called "proxy" that Batgirl is using who is kinda an Oracle-like character. So, I guess this proxy is going to proxy for Oracle. (*groan* - that *was* an awful pun).

Barbara is training an assistant/replacement. (Proxy, by the way, is Wendy from Super Friends.)

I suspect it's an editorial decision. With Oracle needed for her Birds of Prey duties, having her do the basically the same thing with Steph in Batgirl would perhaps be a little too much, so bring in a similar character to fill the role.

 

[Admiral_Young]

I've not been reading "Birds of Prey" and should be so I haven't really been caught up on Babs stuff but have read a few issues of "Batgirl" and love that book. I should point out that at the end of the Batgirl Bruce Wayne one shot that Bruce laments to Steph that he will reveal himself to Babs at his own time which indicates to me that he intends a larger role maybe for her in Batman Incorporated. Perhaps "Death of Oracle" is the beginning of a new role for her.

 

[coolghoul]

Are they trying to establish *why* Bruce is so keen on starting Batman Inc? Or does he come back from his time-travels all-convinced already?

Also - this might sound like a dumb question - why can't Batgirl/Steph appear in Birds of Prey? ("Cos female bats are not birds?!")

 

[FormerLurker]

Back to Oracle - I was reading something about how there's somebody else called "proxy" that Batgirl is using who is kinda an Oracle-like character. So, I guess this proxy is going to proxy for Oracle. (*groan* - that *was* an awful pun).

This is in fact the reason she is called "Proxy."

 

[Allyn Gibson]

I should point out that at the end of the Batgirl Bruce Wayne one shot that Bruce laments to Steph that he will reveal himself to Babs at his own time which indicates to me that he intends a larger role maybe for her in Batman Incorporated. Perhaps "Death of Oracle" is the beginning of a new role for her.

I just got the Batgirl special today. (I run a week behind.) There were some nice touches in it; I liked the way the issue looked at Steph's whole relationship with Bruce, and I liked the final revelations as well. I disagree a little with Bruce's belief that Batgirl is the lowest profile of the Bat-family; I'd think that Gothamites would be more aware of Batgirl (or at least the existence of a Batgirl) than, say, Batwoman or the Huntress. I also liked the acknowledgement that Stephanie was a Robin; there were rumblings some years ago that she doesn't "count."

Bruce probably does have a special role in mind for Barbara.

Are they trying to establish *why* Bruce is so keen on starting Batman Inc? Or does he come back from his time-travels all-convinced already?

The first three parts of Bruce Wayne: The Road Home that I've read (Batman & Robin, Red Robin, and Batgirl) suggest that Bruce has a master plan that he's playing to.

Though Batman, Inc. #1 is also supposed to explain why Bruce would start franchising the Batman name. Based on the Red Robin special, I suspect that it's partly to combat Ra's al-Ghul and the League of Shadows.

Also - this might sound like a dumb question - why can't Batgirl/Steph appear in Birds of Prey? ("Cos female bats are not birds?!")

There's no magical reason that she can't. I just don't really see Steph "gelling" with the Birds. She's younger, by at least a decade, than any of the Birds. She's also more part-time as a superhero than the Birds. The Birds are also more global; I don't see Steph being able to drop everything at Gotham U to go jetsetting to take down a Malaysian drug cartel, for instance.

 

[Professor Zoom]

Who else is married? Lots of stuff going on with Aquaman and Mera but not sure where that's headed... Anybody else that I'm missing?

Wally West and Linda Park.
Barry Allen and Iris (I'm assuming they are back together)
Jay Garrick and Joan.

It looks like The Flashes know how to commit.

 

[Admiral_Young]

The biggest one....Lois and Clark. Ollie and Dinah were until DC shat on Ollie.

Yeah I really liked the Batgirl one shot, the scene where Steph slaps Bruce then realizes what she did and then runs off embarrassed was awesome. Yes Bruce has a master plan that Morrison will be weaving and hopefully explaining as the series goes. His new techno suit that he has been using to assess his family and allies is interesting, reminds me of a proto-Batman Beyond suit.

 

[JoeZhang]

Are they trying to establish *why* Bruce is so keen on starting Batman Inc? Or does he come back from his time-travels all-convinced already?

The first three parts of Bruce Wayne: The Road Home that I've read (Batman & Robin, Red Robin, and Batgirl) suggest that Bruce has a master plan that he's playing to.

There is a one-shot that is suppose to bridge the end of 'The return of Bruce Wayne' and these one-shots but it will come afterwards due to PPP.

 

[coolghoul]

Are they trying to establish *why* Bruce is so keen on starting Batman Inc? Or does he come back from his time-travels all-convinced already?

The first three parts of Bruce Wayne: The Road Home that I've read (Batman & Robin, Red Robin, and Batgirl) suggest that Bruce has a master plan that he's playing to.

There is a one-shot that is suppose to bridge the end of 'The return of Bruce Wayne' and these one-shots but it will come afterwards due to PPP.

PPP?

I understand that they are driving to some mysterious master plan (for Batman Inc.) in The Road Home oneshots. But how did it come about that Batman comes back from his time-travails (haha) with this plan. Did something happen in "The Return of Bruce Wayne" to warrant him to start thinking about creating Batman Inc?

I guess it will be covered in the one-shot to-be...

 

[Mr Light]

Here's what I don't like. We're in the middle of Bruce being time lost and bringing the apocalypse. Then all of a sudden we get these one-shots where he's already home, perfectly fine? Talk about killing the suspense. Obviously we all know Bruce is going to return but why spoil it by release these now? Not to mention how it steals the wind of the sails of the ending of B&R#15.

 

[Admiral_Young]

Yeah I'm not thrilled with how DC has scheduled this one shots. They all should have come out next month. I've enjoyed all of them so far but it just gets confusing with all the other Bruce Wayne tie-ins. Like always DC is really milking Bruce's return, this must be driving Morrison nuts.