David A. Goodman, I have a question about killing.

[Data Holmes]

Re: David A. Goodman, I have a question about kill

Posted by Jeriko:

If labelling B&B talentless is to be on the verge of warnable offense, I might remind you that you've called them quite a bit worse, and rightfully so, in the past.

They've shown no extraordinary talent with respect to Enterprise. Quite the contrary. The only talent they seem to possess is the ability to pull from the same bottomless pit of mediocrity that produced seven years of solid shit called Voyager.

This show has incredible potential - an attractive cast, terrific special effects, unmatched visual production values, and a great premise.

But so did Voyager. And it was squandered. By the same lousy writing and riskless production that's choking Enterprise.

And those two hacks are largely responsible for it.

-J

I think it is unfare to lump the two together. Braga wrote some really good eps of TNG. The problem is berman. People in this thread seem to not realise that in TNG, DS9, and the first two seasions of VOY berman had others who controled the series. They decided the stories and writing.

Ent is starting out like TNG did. Roddenberry oversaw everything. wrote/rewrote/co-devloped every story. The first two seasions of TNG are considered by some to be the weekest of them all. They had some good eps here and there but the seasons were considered the weekest.

The problem is berman. Braga has been under him for his whole trek career. What he says Braga does. Braga is stifled by berman.


This thread has a point, and I hope DAG will read it. Storm has a good point. Every popular show now has the things that are talked about in this thread. ER, West Wing, JAG, CSI, 24, Fastlaine, John Doe, Smallvill, The Shield.
These are all expanding the range of TV. The Shield is interesting as it pushes the limits really far. These pushing and even breaking of the old gard rules of TV are what draws people to see them and makes them popular. Trek has gone back to 1986 TV after it grew with DS9 it took a step back.

 

[AlphaMan]

Posted by Storm Rucker:
... Archer seems to think command is a camping trip.

I think you'vew just summed ENT up in one sentence....

just transplant B&B for Archer!!

 

[Data Holmes]

Re: David A. Goodman, I have a question about kill

http://www.trekbbs.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB28&Number=582795&page=1&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1

Storm, you may want to take a look at this thread. It poped up while you where on vacation and you may find it enteresting.

 

[Top41]

Posted by Storm Rucker:
^^
Interesting assessment. Let's just hope his reaction doesn't involve speeches about gazelles.

And before anyone corrects me, when I included "The Cage" up there I should have included Pike in tandem with Kirk, as he was equally flawed and torn regarding duty and death, and the loneliness of command.

Archer seems to think command is a camping trip.

LOL!

Archer: "And sometimes, gazelles go off and get killed. It's hard and it's sad, but the other gazelles have to find a way to go on."

Archer needs a better speechwriter.

I really would like to find out more about Archer's professional past. He's such an idealist, but I'm wondering what kind of practical experience he has. Is this his first assignment as captain? Did he really only get the assignment because of who his father was? What was he doing before he got command of the Enterprise?

I'd really like to see an episode about his past. Has he ever been in command of a mission where he lost a crew member, and if so, how? One of my favorite TNG backstories was Picard's guilt in regards to the death of Jack Crusher. I don't think ENT should copy that, but a similarly rich backstory for Archer could help us get a better idea of him as a captain.

 

[Guest]

Perhaps one day... there will be a primer of sorts... a directive to follow... some kind of prime instruction... for a directive... on affairs with new alien races... so we know... how to implement contact in prime efficiency.... yes... a directive of sorts... perhaps some kind of prime.... directive.

 

[Noname Given]

Re: David A. Goodman, I have a question about kill

Posted by AlphaMan:
Not sure, but CC to me is in the upper half as far as quality of S2 ENT...

...but then again, we find out that first contact with an alien race happened not as we thought it did and all we got from that episode was that "Vulcans invented velcro"... If the episode had nothing to say, then why tell the story?

Actually, I think the episode goes a long way to explain why the T'Pol character has essentially thrown her lot in with the human crew of 'Enterprise'; and has managed to stick it out as long as she has (it was mentionmed that the previous record for a Vulcan managing to serve with a human crew was 10 days). It may also explain why she sticks up for them with the Vulcan High Command whenever they start to complain about Archer's actions.

As for the 'first contact' arguement, come on, if you're going to nit that in 'Carbon Creek' then we might as well state Vulcan/Human first contact occured in 1933 (TOS - 'City on the Edge of Forever'), again in 1966 (TOS - 'Tomorrow is Yesterday') and again in 1968 (TOS - 'Assignemnt Earth'). The episode did notyhing to change the 'official' FC date. As a matter of fact, I like the way they handled in in that Trip and Archer still believe it's just a 'tale'; yet the audience knows it really happened as T'Pol took out the purse brought back by her great grandmother (and obviously passed down for whatever reason)

 

[Storm Rucker]

Posted by Top41:

Is this his first assignment as captain?

It's not really well established he's on an assignment so much as a purposeless joyride.

Did he really only get the assignment because of who his father was?

It certainly wasn't on his command or fighting abilities.

You get the idea from Broken Bow that maybe he should be the project leader who gets to do the first test flight before a real captain is assigned to take her out on a shakedown cruise.

Sort of like the President throwing out the first pitch of the World Series. He's not really qualified to be on the mound, but we all want to be nice.

What was he doing before he got command of the Enterprise?

Leaping about. Water polo.

 

[Jeriko]

Re: David A. Goodman, I have a question about kill

Posted by hutt359:
The problem is berman. Braga has been under him for his whole trek career. What he says Braga does. Braga is stifled by berman.

I thought about carving an exception for Braga. He seems to genuinely want to create a new Sopranos or Farscape, or at least to indulge in the same level of writing and realism.

But the problem is he's been working under Berman too long. If Berman were to be fired tomorrow, I don't see Braga carrying through with his hopes of crafting an edgier and more dramatic Trek. I'm afraid those mental bonds imposed by Berman might well be too far ingrained in Braga's psyche for him to execute a dramatic reworking of Enterprise.

I'd prefer someone untainted by Berman.

But I wouldn't be opposed to giving Braga half a season to prove himself post-Berman. I'm willing to give the man a shot, should I be wrong about him.

-J

 

[Storm Rucker]

Re: David A. Goodman, I have a question about kill

Posted by Jeriko:
I'm willing to give the man a shot, should I be wrong about him.

-J

I'll politely ask you to remember board rules, kind sir.

There are dullards about who will doubtless take this as a direct threat of violence.

Harumph.

 

[Jeriko]

Re: David A. Goodman, I have a question about kill

BTW, when I say I'm willing to give Braga a shot, I don't mean that in the Storm Rucker sense.

-J

 

[Top41]

Posted by Storm Rucker:


It's not really well established he's on an assignment so much as a purposeless joyride.

LOL!!! Well, at least he seems to be having fun. Sort of.

You get the idea from Broken Bow that maybe he should be the project leader who gets to do the first test flight before a real captain is assigned to take her out on a shakedown cruise.

Sort of like the President throwing out the first pitch of the World Series. He's not really qualified to be on the mound, but we all want to be nice.

Archer is a genuinely nice guy, and so darn earnest. Maybe they just wanted to give him a chance.

On the subject of Berman v. Braga: wasn't Berman instrumental in creating and maintaining DS9? I ask because DS9 is my favorite Trek, and it's hard for me to dislike anyone involved in it.

 

[Guest]

On the subject of Berman v. Braga: wasn't Berman instrumental in creating and maintaining DS9? I ask because DS9 is my favorite Trek, and it's hard for me to dislike anyone involved in it.

I always thought Berman initally supported the concept, but gave up once Michael Piller took the reigns and reinvented the show, creating a schism between ds9 and its predecessors. From that point on, I believe that he never truly supported the show and would've let it die if he could. Thankfully guys like Behr and the gang kept it alive and kicking.(much to Dennis Bailey's chagrin).
-Jamman

 

[Data Holmes]

Posted by Top41:

On the subject of Berman v. Braga: wasn't Berman instrumental in creating and maintaining DS9? I ask because DS9 is my favorite Trek, and it's hard for me to dislike anyone involved in it.

On DS9 berman was little more than a rubber stamper. Piller created it, Behr/Moore/Wolfe took over when Piller went on. berman did little more than get his name on it. He also stifled the dominion war by a seasion. He was the one who felt that people wouldn't get the dominion war and made it a war with the klingons. Then Behr made it the dominion war when he took over a year later.

 

[Storm Rucker]

Posted by Top41:

On the subject of Berman v. Braga: wasn't Berman instrumental in creating and maintaining DS9?

Don't know. DS9 cam about at a time when I wasn't watching any TV. I hear from people I respect it's quite good in the last four seasons, and I imagine I will buy them on DVD one day and watch them, but it's not my bailiwick.

 

[8-4-7-2]

Posted by hutt359:
On DS9 berman was little more than a rubber stamper. Piller created it, Behr/Moore/Wolfe took over when Piller went on. berman did little more than get his name on it. He also stifled the dominion war by a seasion. He was the one who felt that people wouldn't get the dominion war and made it a war with the klingons. Then Behr made it the dominion war when he took over a year later.

That's not fully true. It was the studio itself that demanded a shakeup for the show. They thought that people couldn't handle deeper stories on a political backdrop and wanted more action.
Season 4 wasn't supposed to be about the war. The opening episode was intended to be "Homefront/Paradise Lost" (with a much larger budget), and more time would have been devoted to the changeling infiltration in the entire season. However the war could have started early season 5. But that's speculation.

As you said Berman was a moneycounter. The real showrunner was Micheal Piller in seasons 1-3. Then in midseason 3 Piller left, and Behr became the main creative force. In the following seasons he repeatedly overruled Berman and completely ignored him by season 6

As for the Klingons. I think that was Behr and Berman's doing equally. (check the Companion about that). I don't really blame it on Berman alone. More on the fans who can't handle anything else than space exploration and action (not that the show didn't have both)

 

[Top41]

Interesting about the DS9 stuff. I didn't know that Berman wasn't very involved in it. He still must have been part of creating the characters, though, right?

I'm kind of hoping that, when crafting complex or at least long-running arcs, that the ENT writers will take a cue from DS9. The plotline was so well-crafted in that show, especially in the final seasons.

Also, we have Shiban from the X-Files, who knows a thing or two about complex, involving arcs.

 

[8-4-7-2]

Berman created the show together with Micheal Piller. So yes I'd say he had substantial input in the premise and the characters.
But it were people like Piller, Behr, Moore, Wolfe and Beimler who really shaped it throughout the years. Berman rather oversaw the budget, and needed to agree to drastic decisions (like bringing Worf on, or introducing the Defiant). But he wasn't involved in every little detail like on ENT. At least not later on, when he concentrated his efforts on VOY.

I also have my suspicions that it were Behr and Moore who really went for the arc based storytelling, and that Berman merely tolerated it

 

[AlphaMan]

Posted by 8-4-7-2:
... I also have my suspicions that it were Behr and Moore who really went for the arc based storytelling, and that Berman merely tolerated it

Yes.. the S4 TNG DVD extras would support that. Moore says that after Sins of the Father, he had to explain to everyone that the events in SotF changed Worf in a prolific way and the story demanded a follow up and he got Pillar into the idea of arcs and that's when he decided to do the BOBW/Family arc.... Berman of course, being the suit behind a desk bean counter, doesn't like arcs because they don't do well in sydication and therefore, aren't as profitable...

 

[JNG]

Re: David A. Goodman, I have a question about kill

Posted by 8-4-7-2:

Posted by hutt359:
On DS9 berman was little more than a rubber stamper. Piller created it, Behr/Moore/Wolfe took over when Piller went on. berman did little more than get his name on it. He also stifled the dominion war by a seasion. He was the one who felt that people wouldn't get the dominion war and made it a war with the klingons. Then Behr made it the dominion war when he took over a year later.

That's not fully true. It was the studio itself that demanded a shakeup for the show. They thought that people couldn't handle deeper stories on a political backdrop and wanted more action.
Season 4 wasn't supposed to be about the war. The opening episode was intended to be "Homefront/Paradise Lost" (with a much larger budget), and more time would have been devoted to the changeling infiltration in the entire season. However the war could have started early season 5. But that's speculation.

As you said Berman was a moneycounter. The real showrunner was Micheal Piller in seasons 1-3. Then in midseason 3 Piller left, and Behr became the main creative force. In the following seasons he repeatedly overruled Berman and completely ignored him by season 6

As for the Klingons. I think that was Behr and Berman's doing equally. (check the Companion about that). I don't really blame it on Berman alone. More on the fans who can't handle anything else than space exploration and action (not that the show didn't have both)

As I just posted in another forum, 8-4-7-2 is right here, though I will add the clarification that the Klingons were specifically suggested as a bad guy in the studio directive to "up the action quotient."

But we've wandered rather far afield here, both from the pretend premise of the thread (to discuss the issue of death in Enterprise with David Goodman) and its real intention (to piss off the moderators).

 

[Storm Rucker]

Re: David A. Goodman, I have a question about kill

^^

Nice hat trick - slander, trolling, and brown-nosing.

Congrats.