David A. Goodman, I have a question about killing.

[AlphaMan]

You know Storm, So many people misinterpreted you that day, but being the TNZ mod where you primarily post, I know you were not referring to B&B personally and just having some fun. But ENT is not TNZ... If you were so inclined, you could send Mr. Goodman a Private Message explaining that to him... and it would be no one else's business besides yours and his. It would be waiting for him the next time he logged on.

Just a thought....

 

[AlphaMan]

Please everyone.... don't go flooding his mailbox!!

 

[23skidoo]

Posted by Richard:
Sorry, but Enterprise is a failure, Mr. Goodman. Trek is dead.

pretty much says it all ...

 

[Storm Rucker]

Re: David A. Goodman, I have a question about kill

Posted by AlphaMan:
You know Storm, So many people misinterpreted you that day...

*sniff*

No one understands me!

*wail*

[harvey firestein voice]

I just wanna be loved. Is that so wrrooonng??!!!

[/hfv]




No, I'm not going to write DAG. I might use complete sentences and cohesive points, which would only confuse any ENT writer.

This thread really is some constructive criticism. Honestly. Someone - I forget who - said it best, that ENT currently has all the dramatic tension of a Hannah-Barberra cartoon.

Your idea for a more fluid cast - imagine going through two or three captains in a seven year run, or at least two or three security chiefs (like the lady bailiffs on "Night Court" - RIP) - is absolutely brilliant.

Alas, TPTB seem stuck in this notion of permanent casts, static relationships, and total lack of character conflict.

This, above all else, is why ENT fails so miserably.

 

[23skidoo]

Re: David A. Goodman, I have a question about kill

Posted by Storm Rucker:
Alas, TPTB seem stuck in this notion of permanent casts, static relationships, and total lack of character conflict.

This, above all else, is why ENT fails so miserably.

That implies that TNG was also a failure. Except for Yar's death and the changing of the doctors in year 2 (both of which were for IMO dumb reasons), there really wasn't much that changed over the 7 years. And any major changes that did occur (such as Troi and Worf starting a relationship) pretty much happened in the second half.

And TOS, by this logic, was a complete failure, because there was absolutely no conflict between anyone except for the occasional bitching by McCoy which was more comic relief and the redshirt deaths which quickly became a cliche.

I see a lot of conflict going on in ENT. I certainly wouldn't call it a failure. And as far as killing anyone off ... no Trek series has ever run its full length without changing some of the main cast members (i.e. those whose deaths would really make an impact), and some of these changes occurred due to death. There's nothing to say that a future cast change in ENT wouldn't be handled in a similar fashion.

Cheers!

Alex

 

[wrlord]

Posted by Dennis Bailey:

Posted by wrlord:
Storm, you're asking the guy who got squeemish [sic] and ran away when you joked about disembowling B&B.

No, the guy who chose not to hang around a place where that kind of nonsense was apparently considered amusing.

In other words, a grown-up.

Bear in mind you're talking about a writer for ENT. I'd say his juvnility factor would have to be pretty high.

 

[AlphaMan]

Re: David A. Goodman, I have a question about kill

Posted by 23skidoo:

Posted by Storm Rucker:
Alas, TPTB seem stuck in this notion of permanent casts, static relationships, and total lack of character conflict.

This, above all else, is why ENT fails so miserably.

That implies that TNG was also a failure. Except for Yar's death and the changing of the doctors in year 2 (both of which were for IMO dumb reasons), there really wasn't much that changed over the 7 years. And any major changes that did occur (such as Troi and Worf starting a relationship) pretty much happened in the second half.

And TOS, by this logic, was a complete failure, because there was absolutely no conflict between anyone except for the occasional bitching by McCoy which was more comic relief and the redshirt deaths which quickly became a cliche.

I see a lot of conflict going on in ENT. I certainly wouldn't call it a failure. And as far as killing anyone off ... no Trek series has ever run its full length without changing some of the main cast members (i.e. those whose deaths would really make an impact), and some of these changes occurred due to death. There's nothing to say that a future cast change in ENT wouldn't be handled in a similar fashion.

Cheers!

Alex

I have to beg to differ with you on that TNG point 23skidoo.... Although TNG may not have had any main cast members die after S1, at least the writers had the guts to dig into the characters there... That whole Worf/Discommendation/Dishonor thing was brilliant IMHO... No one of consequence died, but the ordeal wounded Worf to the point where he was forced to reach deep down within himself to deal with it... That's character development.

Take the S6 episode Lessons, where Picard falls in love with his Science Officer and is forced to send her on a mission that jeopardizes her life... This hurts Picard... and we see the man in a predicament that we've only seen that one time.. And Picard learns something about himself in that ep... One of the more forgettable TNG eps, but light years ahead of anything ENT has done to date.. again, JMO....

You don't have to kill a character to wound them.. you can put them through things that will slightly change how they view things... TNG and DS9 were great at that and as far as I'm concerned, it isn't even in the same book with little tidbits like Reed likes pineapple cake or Trip playing a harmonica. Characters develop through ordeals you put them through.

 

[wrlord]

Re: David A. Goodman, I have a question about kill

Posted by 23skidoo:
That implies that TNG was also a failure.

And...?

Posted by 23skidoo:

And TOS, by this logic, was a complete failure, because there was absolutely no conflict between anyone except for the occasional bitching by McCoy which was more comic relief and the redshirt deaths which quickly became a cliche.

Dead wrong. There were legitimate profound disagreements between characters (See Bread & Circuses or The Apple). Far more importantly, these were fascinatingly, deeply flawed characters - especially Kirk.

 

[Storm Rucker]

Re: David A. Goodman, I have a question about kill

Posted by 23skidoo:

That implies that TNG was also a failure.

AlphaMan has already addressed this.

And TOS, by this logic, was a complete failure, because there was absolutely no conflict between anyone except for the occasional bitching by McCoy which was more comic relief and the redshirt deaths which quickly became a cliche.

For one, TOS had dynamic characters who were compelling, and writing and pacing that was exciting and original. And the whole concept broke new ground. Forty years ago.

Further, audiences have become too sophisticated for static characterizations - characters who do not grow, and whose actions have no consequences week to week. Even popular sitcoms, which are written for the lowest common denominator, feature character growth and actions having consequences.

ENT however, revels in the mediocre, the sluggish, the safe, the two-dimensional, and the bottled episodic forumla, which just doesn't hack it.

As someone else said - it's a copy of a copy of a copy. And it's done with a premium placed on keeping it slow and bland.

 

[AlphaMan]

Re: David A. Goodman, I have a question about kill

^^^

2 things... Does anyone here watch Fraiser? That's character development done to a tee on a sitcom no less!! Very intelligent writing IMNSHO

and I've always wondered how trek could be so dynamic with TNG and DS9 and all of a sudden become so afraid to take risk with VOY and ENT... and I'm really begining to wonder if UPN is "politicking" all the creativity out of the flag show.... Reminds me of something Riker said to Lt. JG Picard in the episode Tapestry:

"If you want to get ahead, you have to take risk, get noticed... stand out in a crowd...."

Hello... B&B...? UPN.. anyone listening? ?

 

[Lady Conqueror]

Re: David A. Goodman, I have a question about kill

^Wasn't the plot for "Carbon Creek" pitched by the executive producer/Creator of Frasier??. I believe he's good friends with either Berman or Braga.

 

[AlphaMan]

Re: David A. Goodman, I have a question about kill

Not sure, but CC to me is in the upper half as far as quality of S2 ENT...

...but then again, we find out that first contact with an alien race happened not as we thought it did and all we got from that episode was that "Vulcans invented velcro"... If the episode had nothing to say, then why tell the story?

 

[dudley]

Posted by JohnM:
I think you guys ran off Goodman. Hes not coming back.

Hooray! Bring out the good wine!

 

[dudley]

Re: David A. Goodman, I have a question about kill

Posted by AlphaMan:
^^^

2 things... Does anyone here watch Fraiser? That's character development done to a tee on a sitcom no less!! Very intelligent writing IMNSHO

and I've always wondered how trek could be so dynamic with TNG and DS9 and all of a sudden become so afraid to take risk with VOY and ENT... and I'm really begining to wonder if UPN is "politicking" all the creativity out of the flag show.... Reminds me of something Riker said to Lt. JG Picard in the episode Tapestry:

"If you want to get ahead, you have to take risk, get noticed... stand out in a crowd...."

Hello... B&B...? UPN.. anyone listening? ?

I love that show - Frasier. But that takes talent; and talent Enterprise-maker people no have! It's almost as if B&B thought, "All we have to do is keep the ball rolling."

 

[Miss Thang]

Re: David A. Goodman, I have a question about kill

Posted by AlphaMan:
You know, I've always envisioned a Trek incarnation that was written along the lines that ER is written. Of course with the story arcs, but the introduction and bowing out of characters on a fluid basis... Yes, you'd have your core stars, but the cast around them should be dynamic.. just like in real life. People come and go over a course of years in the workplace. If nothing, ER is a very dynamic show. I mean how many times can they loose someone on an operating table and you feel it? ER manages to do that somehow. I won't lie to you.. I haven't consistantly watched the series' entire run, but in spurts here and there. You can almost always get up to speed in about the first 5 minutes of the show. And guess what.. people die all the time... and sometimes, even the main characters die. I don't think anyone's even been seriously wounded on ENT.. yeah, I know Reed was shot and had a bomb stuck through his leg, but I'm talking emotional wounding. This maybe morbid on my part, but I don't feel like I know a TV character until I've seen them be hurt... and how they deal with the pain.

Am I morbid?

You raise a good point. It kind of sucks to know that the main cast crewmember in jeopardy won't die because he has a seven-year contract. That's been the case since TNG and it's really old now.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Posted by Lady Conqueror:

I doubt he'd read this thread though.

Why would he bother?

I get a kick out of people declaring Star Trek "dead" with such frequency right now. "The sky is falling! The sky is falling!"

There's a new Star Trek episode on tomorrow night.

 

[T'Baio]

I just posted something in Sci-Fi/Fantasy about how if Lucas actually shows Anakin turn into Vader I'll kill him.

Do I warrant a warning for that?

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Posted by T'Baio:
I just posted something in Sci-Fi/Fantasy about how if Lucas actually shows Anakin turn into Vader I'll kill him.

Do I warrant a warning for that?

I think you warrant a warning just for that avatar.

 

[T'Baio]

Posted by Dennis Bailey:

Posted by T'Baio:
I just posted something in Sci-Fi/Fantasy about how if Lucas actually shows Anakin turn into Vader I'll kill him.

Do I warrant a warning for that?

I think you warrant a warning just for that avatar.

 

[Captain Pike]

About as funny as a road accident, as per usual.