Dating "The Cage" - When does it ACTUALLY take place?

[Christopher]

Yes, the same way that lieutenant commanders can wear two different insignia, if TOS season 1 is taken literally. Either way it is open to be retconned: Either Tormolen is a full lieutenant and "really" wears a full stripe, or the insignia represents a different rank, as it was apparently intended to do, and Tormolen's dialogue is wrong. I prefer the latter, as it fits with the insignia system and TNG better. YMMV.

But I'm not talking about individual preference, or about what you personally imagine to be the case. I'm talking about what there's objective evidence for. The whole point is that the show never clearly establishes such a rank, which is why it's left to individual opinion, and why there was no fan consensus that such a rank existed before TNG made it explicit. If you have to rely on personal belief or extrapolation to arrive at your conclusion, that merely proves my point that there's a gap in the canon itself.

But it seems to me that if they had intended a lt. j.g. rank to be in use in Starfleet, then we would've seen it used repeatedly, not just one ambiguous time. After all, there were dozens of lieutenants seen over the course of the show -- I estimate more than 50 named lieutenants throughout TOS, more than 60 if you count TAS, and that's not even counting unnamed extras. And as a rule, there are fewer officers holding each successively higher rank, so logically there should be more j.g. lieutenants than full lieutenants. But instead there's exactly one apparent instance out of 50 or 60, which is statistically indistinguishable from zero. Which, to me, makes it very unlikely that the producers intended the rank to exist. Even if someone involved in costuming on "The Naked Time" thought it existed, that idea evidently didn't survive the process of trial and error that shaped the conventions of Starfleet as the series went along.

 

[J.T.B.]

But I'm not talking about individual preference, or about what you personally imagine to be the case. I'm talking about what there's objective evidence for.

There's objective evidence that an insignia was created for a grade that was above ensign and below lieutenant.

And as a rule, there are fewer officers holding each successively higher rank, so logically there should be more j.g. lieutenants than full lieutenants.

Not necessarily. There are always more lieutenants than JGs in the US Navy because officers spend more time in that grade than as ensign and JG combined. But yes, there should have been more "0.5 stripe" personnel visible. My guess would be that the additional labor involved in sewing the segmented stripes on was not deemed worth the time for extras' costumes. Or they just forgot about it.

 

[Christopher]

There's objective evidence that an insignia was created for a grade that was above ensign and below lieutenant.

There's also objective evidence of a gravestone reading "James R. Kirk." We are not talking about a real universe with internal consistency, we're talking about a bunch of stories that a TV writing staff and production crew slapped together on a rushed schedule. They were making this stuff up as they went, and there are multiple things they used once and then abandoned, like lasers and lithium crystals and Spock grinning. What matters is whether they kept an idea, whether they liked it well enough to go on using it.

My guess would be that the additional labor involved in sewing the segmented stripes on was not deemed worth the time for extras' costumes. Or they just forgot about it.

Exactly my point. They didn't keep the idea. Fiction is a process of successive approximation. Canons evolve over time, and the later version of a thing represents the more mature and "correct" version, which is why we have dilithium and Vulcans instead of lithium and Vulcanians. To all indications, Tormolen's rank stripe is just what they call "early installment weirdness." If it hadn't been, we would've seen it again.

 

[Longinus]

The reason for why there were many lieutenants and only one lieutenant JG probably is that one continuous stripe is much easier to sew on.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Enlisted personnel were always there in TOS, with numerous onscreen references despite GR's TMoST comment. As Longinus said, the idea that ensign and everyone below that wore the same insignia (that is, none) is a little hard to fathom. TMP's scheme seemed to be an attempt to remedy not having an insignia for ensign, but consequently disregarding JG, even though that grade was used in the novel.

Right. Although I can't specifically recall an enlisted or NCO rank spoken in dialog (anyone have an example?), I've no doubt that the jumpsuits in the phaser room in "Balance of Terror" were under command of Robert and Angela and probably intended to be enlisted personnel.

What I meant was that perhaps we can tweak the idea that all people serving aboard Enterprise are officers to mean that everyone serving has either graduated from Starfleet Academy or has enough experience to be an NCO, or in other words, there are no seamen and Starfleet enlisted personnel have to have enough experience to have moved up in rank to the level of petty officer before serving aboard a ship like Enterprise.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I started dating "The Cage", but "The Man Trap" got jealous.

 

[Ithekro]

I started dating "The Cage", but "The Man Trap" got jealous.

Missed telling that joke by seven minutes.

I was more thinking about where would you take "The Cage" out on a date?

 

[F. King Daniel]

I was more thinking about where would you take "The Cage" out on a date?

The Murusaki 312 quasar looks kinda romantic.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I'm surprised it took this long!

 

[GNDN18]

Missed telling that joke by seven minutes.

I was more thinking about where would you take "The Cage" out on a date?

Any place you wish to visualize. May your way be as pleasant.

 

[J.T.B.]

There's objective evidence that an insignia was created for a grade that was above ensign and below lieutenant.

I'm going to withdraw that. Searching through the transcripts, it seems that an ensign was not mentioned until "The Galileo Seven," prod. no. 14. So Tormolen's stripe may well be just part of a general vagueness early-on. Lieutenant and its insignia would have been well established by "The Naked Time," so it seems like a conscious decision to use something different, but what the intention was, who knows.

Right. Although I can't specifically recall an enlisted or NCO rank spoken in dialog (anyone have an example?), I've no doubt that the jumpsuits in the phaser room in "Balance of Terror" were under command of Robert and Angela and probably intended to be enlisted personnel.

Yeoman Third Class Tina Lawton, Technicians First Class Harrison and Thule, Watkins Engineer Grade Four, Chief Humboldt. Speaking of Tomlinson, in the script he was a "specialist" and was called that in the episode, but he was given a lieutenant stripe.

What I meant was that perhaps we can tweak the idea that all people serving aboard Enterprise are officers to mean that everyone serving has either graduated from Starfleet Academy or has enough experience to be an NCO, or in other words, there are no seamen and Starfleet enlisted personnel have to have enough experience to have moved up in rank to the level of petty officer before serving aboard a ship like Enterprise.

It makes sense to me, but if "crewman" is the equivalent of a non-rated seaman, it seems like they are aboard as well (Darnell, Green, Compton). The unlucky Jackson in "Catspaw" was also called crewman but given a lieutenant stripe.

 

[Christopher]

Yeah... when I was comparing my old handwritten list of Enterprise officers (which I compiled decades ago from the Concordance) with Memory Alpha's list of Starfleet lieutenants (which doesn't separate them out by era, inconveniently), I noticed that MA listed some lieutenants that Trimble had listed as crewmen or specialists. I guess Trimble was going from the scripts and MA was going from the uniforms.

 

[J.T.B.]

Yeah... when I was comparing my old handwritten list of Enterprise officers (which I compiled decades ago from the Concordance) with Memory Alpha's list of Starfleet lieutenants (which doesn't separate them out by era, inconveniently), I noticed that MA listed some lieutenants that Trimble had listed as crewmen or specialists. I guess Trimble was going from the scripts and MA was going from the uniforms.

Right, Trimble must have used those Lincoln Enterprises scripts. That's also where the persistent "Lieutenant Commander" Kelowitz comes from.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

I started dating "The Cage", but "The Man Trap" got jealous.

I'd rather date "The Cage"'s brother, "The Menagerie." He's twice the fun.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I'm going to withdraw that. Searching through the transcripts, it seems that an ensign was not mentioned until "The Galileo Seven," prod. no. 14. So Tormolen's stripe may well be just part of a general vagueness early-on. Lieutenant and its insignia would have been well established by "The Naked Time," so it seems like a conscious decision to use something different, but what the intention was, who knows.



Yeoman Third Class Tina Lawton, Technicians First Class Harrison and Thule, Watkins Engineer Grade Four, Chief Humboldt. Speaking of Tomlinson, in the script he was a "specialist" and was called that in the episode, but he was given a lieutenant stripe.



It makes sense to me, but if "crewman" is the equivalent of a non-rated seaman, it seems like they are aboard as well (Darnell, Green, Compton). The unlucky Jackson in "Catspaw" was also called crewman but given a lieutenant stripe.

Riiiight, OK. Thing was, in many of these cases they were wearing ensign's uniforms, Green and the yeomen for instance. Thanks for the technician and engineer references too. Crewman, too. Yeah, you've sold me, it's hard to square (like, yes, impossible) that the original intent was officers-only.

edit - FWIW, from the STAR TREK WRITERS/DIRECTORS GUIDE (third revision, 1967):

Is the starship U.S.S. Enterprise a military vessel?

Yes, but only semi-military in practice -- omitting features which are heavily authoritarian. For example, we are not aware of "officers" and "enlisted men" categories. And we avoid saluting and other annoying medieval leftovers. On the other hand, we do keep a flavor of Naval usage and terminology to help encourage believability and identification by the audience. After all, our own Navy today still retains remnants of tradition known to Nelson and Drake.​

And from earlier:

YEOMAN --- Played by a succession of young actresses, always lovely. One such character has been well established in the first year, "YEOMAN JANICE RAND", played by the lovely Grace Lee Whitney. Whether Yeoman Rand or a new character provided by the writer, this female Yeoman serves Kirk as his combination Executive Secretary-Valet-Military Aide. As such, she is always capable, a highly professional career girl. As with all female Crewman aboard, during duty hours she is treated co-equal with males of the same rank, and the same level of efficient performance is expected. The Yeoman often carries a small over-the-shoulder case, a TRICORDER, about the size of a small handbag, which is also an electronic recorder-camera-sensor combination, immediately available to the Captain should he be away from his Command Console.​

 

[Shawnster]

In today's military are the Jr grades actually subordinate to the full grades to the point of actually being out ranked? Would a lieutenant jg. Salute a full lieutenant? Can a full lieutenant order a lieutenant jg around?

 

[Christopher]

In today's military are the Jr grades actually subordinate to the full grades to the point of actually being out ranked?

I don't understand the question. One is the next step up from the other, so how can it not be outranking?

Then again, Wikipedia says that both ensign and lt. j.g. are OF-1 and full lt. is OF-2. How can two ranks have the same number?

 

[J.T.B.]

Thing was, in many of these cases they were wearing ensign's uniforms, Green and the yeomen for instance. Thanks for the technician and engineer references too. Crewman, too. Yeah, you've sold me, it's hard to square (like, yes, impossible) that the original intent was officers-only.

Yeah, nobody bothered with insignia for ensign and every grade below that. They addressed it in the movies, then TNG did basically the same thing.

For example, we are not aware of "officers" and "enlisted men"

I'd take that to mean the differences are not emphasized. Oh, one more: Spock in "The Immunity Syndrome" records a testimonial "to the captain, officers, and crew of the Enterprise."

In today's military are the Jr grades actually subordinate to the full grades to the point of actually being out ranked? Would a lieutenant jg. Salute a full lieutenant? Can a full lieutenant order a lieutenant jg around?

Yep that's how it works.

Then again, Wikipedia says that both ensign and lt. j.g. are OF-1 and full lt. is OF-2. How can two ranks have the same number?

Those are NATO equivalents, to help standardize between national services whose grades have different titles and don't always line up exactly. A NATO OF-1 position could be staffed with either a USN ensign or LTJG, or any other equivalent, it doesn't matter to the function of the position.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Oh, one more: Spock in "The Immunity Syndrome" records a testimonial "to the captain, officers, and crew of the Enterprise."

Boom, there it is. That's the smokiest gun I've seen. Thanks!

All the other references you cited, years ago I just sort of folded them into ensign grade, forgot about them, and otherwise glossed over them in my misguided and myopic attempt to make the remarks in TMoST and FJTM/blueprints, about everyone being an officer, literally work (with all the specialists etc. having ensign grade). The follies of youth!

Getting back to Spock's testimonial, in my youth I rationalized that away, because elsewhere in the episode Kirk refers to the "crew" generally, once at the beginning when Kirk refers to the crew as having performed excellently but being exhausted, and another time when he says that the ship has the best crew in Starfleet. I don't doubt that in these instances Kirk means everybody, well, except himself, however I'd agree also that he could (maybe, possibly) have just been referring to non-officers. But Spock mentioning crew, after mentioning the captain and all other officers, would be redundant, unless there are non-officers serving in the crew (in which case by "crew" Spock means precisely the non-officers, at least in this case).

In fact, maybe "crewman" doesn't mean "seaman" but rather "enlisted man"?

http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/48.htm

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

In fact, maybe "crewman" doesn't mean "seaman" but rather "enlisted man"?

There a couple of different ways to reconcile the "all officers" comment with known data, but one seems to be the mostly likely.

Firstly, IMO, it cannot be literally true that everyone is at least an Ensign (ie a commissioned officer) at most we could imagine that "Ensign" and "Crewman" is the same in protocol and merely differences in training (Ensigns are Generalists and Crewmen are Specialists).

Expanding on that, the "Monster Maroons" identify the lowest rank as "Ables'man" (ie Able Seaman or the ECS rank of Able Crewman) which suggests to me that they would be "rated personnel" (ie Petty Officers) in the USN sense rather than general crew, and (using the evidence of Janice Rand) may be promoted to commissioned officer after sufficient "time in service" and probably some examinations.

The closest I can find to a RW parallel for this would be either the police (who are all regarded as "officers" even tho at least two ranks below "commissioned officer" exist or the US Civil Air Patrol where non-graduate entry adult members (ie members below 21) are appointed to special ranks that are below 2nd Lieutenant (Flight Officer, Technical Flight Officer and Senior Flight Officer) but are distinct from enlisted ranks, which are held only by prior-service enlistees that transfer in AFAIK.