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Dating "The Cage" - When does it ACTUALLY take place?

It seems odd to burden the makers of TOS with the requirement to have "intent" on every little detail. So what if some of them were ignorant of how rank really works? Most were ignorant of how impulse drive is supposed to work - it doesn't follow we should extend that to the fictional universe of TOS and claim that Starfleet didn't know the difference between FTL and STL (or, worse still, that they briefly forgot this for the duration of the 2260s).

Tormolen told Sulu "You don't rank me"

Well, it was a huge plot point that he was drunk as a skunk. :p

Eight years? Everyone should have pretty much dispersed.

And indeed we have no reason to think they wouldn't have been. It's just that Kirk puts them back together, by force of command. It's not as if they could ever get "outside the gravity" of the Chief of Starfleet Operations!

Timo Saloniemi
 
Why would it be an inconsistency? The stripes went up by half-steps, why would there be a 1.5 and 2.5 but no 0.5? Since it would take significantly more effort to space and sew the broken stripe segments than a single LT stripe, I have to guess it was done purposefully. There was a US Navy rank of LTJG and one later in Trek, I can't think why one would not have fit into the OS rank scheme. Also USAF Captain Christopher was given the insignia of Starfleet lieutenant, which implies that it is the third officer grade from the bottom, not the second. Even though the title of "lieutenant junior grade" was never used, it does seem there was an intention to have some grade between ensign and lieutenant.
Also, if LTJG wasn't intended, then why does the pattern of incrementing the TOS rank braids by half stripes precisely make room for it, at 0.5? As you said, it would be anomalous for there to be a hole at 0.5, but it's worth pointing out that that hole would be precisely where LTJG should go. That's a bizarre coincidence, unless LTJG was intended to go there.

One interesting tidbit: in the TMP braid system, 0.5 (dashed braid) stood for Ensign, but everything above that at least up to Captain was the same, and there was no LTJG. Two NCO ranks were specified below Ensign. I like that better than the concept of enlisted personnel. IIRC, somewhere in TMoST there's a line about all astronauts being officers.

https://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.ne...ision/latest?cb=20081201061639&path-prefix=en

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Starfleet_ranks.
 
One might be more inclined to chalk up the two TMP "Ensigns" with half braid as mistakes than to decide that the very existence of half braid across the ages should somehow be denied... After all, not even Christopher tries to claim that we should simply "accept as a Trek feature" that Spock's two solid braid should sometimes be Lieutenant Commander and sometimes full Commander.

In-universe, it should be likelier for characters to misspeak than to misdress (although it's possible a character in the TNG era might accidentally drop a pip or apply the wrong one when decorating his or her recently laundered/replicated uniform). But a couple of the Lieutenant Commander vs. Commander or Lieutenant mistakes are in extremely formal situations where misspeaking would not only be unlikely but also likely to be immediately scrutinized. So it might still be necessary to pretend the mistake just plain didn't happen, in which case neither dialogue nor costuming should be given preferential treatment...

Timo Saloniemi
 
One interesting tidbit: in the TMP braid system, 0.5 (dashed braid) stood for Ensign, but everything above that at least up to Captain was the same, and there was no LTJG.
I certainly like that better than the TOS system and I wish they had used that in TOS too. That there is no insignia for NCOs is bizarre enough, but not having one for a junior officers to differentiate them from the enlisted personnel is completely bonkers.

As for timing of TMP, I prefer to think it to be later than just couple of years after TOS. It lessens the huge cap between TMP and TWOK, and then we don't need to assume that Kirk commanded Enterprise for years as an admiral, or that there was some never mentioned captain between the films, or that Spock was the captain of Enterprise for over a decade.
 
As for timing of TMP, I prefer to think it to be later than just couple of years after TOS. It lessens the huge cap between TMP and TWOK, and then we don't need to assume that Kirk commanded Enterprise for years as an admiral, or that there was some never mentioned captain between the films, or that Spock was the captain of Enterprise for over a decade.

TMP explicitly showed that Kirk was demoted to captain when he took command of the Enterprise -- just look at the rank stripes on his sleeves. The general assumption is that he commanded the refit E as a captain for some time after TMP -- many tie-ins presume a second 5-year mission, though the Crucible trilogy made it a 7-year deep space survey. There have been dozens of novels over the past few decades set in that post-TMP mission, as well as the first Marvel Trek comic, the LA Times Syndicate newspaper strip, the last couple of the Power Records comic-album sets, a book of young adult short stories by William Rotsler, a DC Comics fill-in issue written by Walter Koenig, the later Marvel Untold Voyages miniseries, and possibly others. Almost all of them portray post-TMP Kirk as a captain rather than an admiral, though there are rare exceptions.

The current model in the Pocket Books novel continuity (mainly via my own Mere Anarchy: The Darkness Drops Again) is that TMP happened in 2273, it was followed by a second 5-year mission (made explicit in Peter David's The Captain's Daughter), then Kirk was promoted to admiral again c. 2278 and Spock commanded the E as a training vessel up through TWOK in 2285. What I established in TDDA was that Kirk's condition for accepting promotion was that he'd get the E assigned as his personal flagship, and would occasionally command it on special missions, with Spock captaining the ship while Admiral Kirk led the mission. So what happened in TWOK, Spock handing the ship over to Kirk for a specific mission, was not the first time they'd done that. (So far, no other author has picked up on that "special missions" thread, although you could retroactively interpret the New Earth miniseries as an example.)
 
I certainly like that better than the TOS system and I wish they had used that in TOS too. That there is no insignia for NCOs is bizarre enough, but not having one for a junior officers to differentiate them from the enlisted personnel is completely bonkers.

...The verisimilitude approach would of course have been to introduce two completely different styles of clothing, one for officers and another for crew. It's not as if anything ever came of the supposed idea of the Enterprise having an all-officer crew, after all. To the contrary, the early plots rather frequently featured undisciplined crewmen fated to die of their own stupidity and contrasted them against the resourceful true heroes; the costuming didn't always support these plots all that well.

What I established in TDDA was that Kirk's condition for accepting promotion was that he'd get the E assigned as his personal flagship, and would occasionally command it on special missions, with Spock captaining the ship while Admiral Kirk led the mission.

Then again, it would be natural to think that Kirk would be the one having to cope with strict conditions and limitations and bowing toes deep to his superiors. I mean, that's what superiors are for.

In order to get those pleasurable few days at commanding "his" ship, Kirk might need to do penance for the next five years, perhaps never setting foot on any ship at all. Whatever he is in the immediate aftermath of TMP, it's not a Federation-wide celebrity with the freedom to command generals and presidents to do his bidding. Rather, he remains a small cog in a big machine, having to toil his office hours in a job he hates.

Timo Saloniemi
 
TMP explicitly showed that Kirk was demoted to captain when he took command of the Enterprise -- just look at the rank stripes on his sleeves.
But certainly that was only temporary? Decker's rank reduction certainly was, it was stated on screen. It makes absolutely no sense that Kirk would have been permanently demoted because he took command of the ship during an emergency. Kirk was an admiral in TMP, he was an admiral in TWOK, he was an admiral between those films.

The general assumption is that he commanded the refit E as a captain for some time after TMP -- many tie-ins presume a second 5-year mission, though the Crucible trilogy made it a 7-year deep space survey. There have been dozens of novels over the past few decades set in that post-TMP mission, as well as the first Marvel Trek comic, the LA Times Syndicate newspaper strip, the last couple of the Power Records comic-album sets, a book of young adult short stories by William Rotsler, a DC Comics fill-in issue written by Walter Koenig, the later Marvel Untold Voyages miniseries, and possibly others. Almost all of them portray post-TMP Kirk as a captain rather than an admiral, though there are rare exceptions.

The current model in the Pocket Books novel continuity (mainly via my own Mere Anarchy: The Darkness Drops Again) is that TMP happened in 2273, it was followed by a second 5-year mission (made explicit in Peter David's The Captain's Daughter), then Kirk was promoted to admiral again c. 2278 and Spock commanded the E as a training vessel up through TWOK in 2285. What I established in TDDA was that Kirk's condition for accepting promotion was that he'd get the E assigned as his personal flagship, and would occasionally command it on special missions, with Spock captaining the ship while Admiral Kirk led the mission. So what happened in TWOK, Spock handing the ship over to Kirk for a specific mission, was not the first time they'd done that. (So far, no other author has picked up on that "special missions" thread, although you could retroactively interpret the New Earth miniseries as an example.)
So? It still doesn't make any sense. Not really my fault that the tie-in makers decided to go with this crazy idea.
 
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I hate the idea of a second five-year mission, and it being with all the usual people. It is just so unimaginative.
 
But certainly that was only temporary? Decker's rank reduction certainly was, it was stated on screen. It makes absolutely no sense that Kirk would have been permanently demoted because he took command of the ship during an emergency. Kirk was an admiral in TMP, he was an admiral in TWOK, he was an admiral between those films.

As I explained it in Ex Machina, Kirk's demotion was the price Admiral Nogura demanded in exchange for granting Kirk's request to take the Enterprise back.

Also, Roddenberry tended to see Starfleet ranks more as job titles than anything else, which is why they could be changed so cavalierly and why we almost never saw anyone of other than captain's rank holding the post of captain. Being the commanding officer of the Enterprise was what Kirk wanted, and it was a vacant position once Decker was gone, so he would've been content to stay at captain's rank with the commensurate responsibilities. The ending of TMP made it clear that Kirk would stay in command, that the crew was back together and would continue together. Remember, the plot of TMP started as a pilot for a revival series that would have Kirk return to being captain of the Enterprise on an ongoing basis. The events of the story were meant to set that up. And if TMP's makers had gotten to do their own sequels, that's what they would've shown.
 
As I explained it in Ex Machina, Kirk's demotion was the price Admiral Nogura demanded in exchange for granting Kirk's request to take the Enterprise back.
With all due respect, that is just something you made up. You may think it makes sense that way (and I'm sure many people agree with you), but I don't.

Also, Roddenberry tended to see Starfleet ranks more as job titles than anything else, which is why they could be changed so cavalierly and why we almost never saw anyone of other than captain's rank holding the post of captain. Being the commanding officer of the Enterprise was what Kirk wanted, and it was a vacant position once Decker was gone, so he would've been content to stay at captain's rank with the commensurate responsibilities. The ending of TMP made it clear that Kirk would stay in command, that the crew was back together and would continue together. Remember, the plot of TMP started as a pilot for a revival series that would have Kirk return to being captain of the Enterprise on an ongoing basis. The events of the story were meant to set that up. And if TMP's makers had gotten to do their own sequels, that's what they would've shown.
But in Phase II Kirk was supposed to be in command from the beginning, right? The admiral thing was just something the invented for the movie. And the next film starts with him being an admiral. So they wanted him to be an admiral for the films. As for the end of TMP, that Kirk took his old ship for a little spin doesn't mean that he could keep the command for years.

If one watches TMP and TWOK without knowing any of the background or tie-in stuff, I think the impression most people get is that Kirk went back to his desk job and not that much time had passed between the films. The change of uniforms is really the biggest thing that indicates a significant passage of time, but the same applies to gap between TOS and TMP.

This is all very much YMMV stuff, but personally I don't think that Kirk's permanent demotion, or permanent command as an admiral make sense, so I prefer to interpret the stuff we've seen on the films in a way that avoids those things.
 
But certainly that was only temporary? Decker's rank reduction certainly was, it was stated on screen. It makes absolutely no sense that Kirk would have been permanently demoted because he took command of the ship during an emergency. Kirk was an admiral in TMP, he was an admiral in TWOK, he was an admiral between those films.

As I explained it in Ex Machina, Kirk's demotion was the price Admiral Nogura demanded in exchange for granting Kirk's request to take the Enterprise back.

Politics. Makes perfect sense to me. Nogura may not have liked Kirk much. Even McCoy's comment about our "revered Admiral Nogura" seemed sarcastic. Kirk probably made a lot of enemies simply by being Kirk and people resenting his success ad charisma.

"You want command of the Enterprise again? How bad do you want it, pal? Bad enough to take a permanent grade reduction? You can have the Enterprise or you can be an Admiral. You can't have both."
 
With all due respect, that is just something you made up. You may think it makes sense that way (and I'm sure many people agree with you), but I don't.

Why in the world are you treating this like some bitter personal argument? This is fiction. Of course it's made up! So it's nonsensical to argue over it like some kind of ideological issue. This isn't a moral conflict, there's no right and wrong, I'm merely describing how the question has been approached in works of fiction over the decades.



But in Phase II Kirk was supposed to be in command from the beginning, right?

Wrong. In the draft script for the pilot episode "In Thy Image," Kirk is an admiral who must talk Nogura into giving him the Enterprise back.


The admiral thing was just something the invented for the movie. And the next film starts with him being an admiral. So they wanted him to be an admiral for the films.

"They?" TMP and TWOK were made by completely different "theys." TMP was produced by Roddenberry, directed by Robert Wise, and written by Harold Livingston, Roddenberry, Jon Povill, and others. When the movie went badly over budget and got lukewarm reviews, Paramount gave the sequel to a totally new team, Harve Bennett and Nicholas Meyer, who started over from scratch. They used the same sets and FX as TMP because their minuscule budget required recycling, but they essentially approached TWOK as a soft reboot, jumping forward quite a few years and not acknowledging TMP's events in any specific way. So it's completely wrong to assume there was a consistent vision unifying both films. As I said, TMP's makers had their own entirely different sequel plans that they never got to execute.
 
Why in the world are you treating this like some bitter personal argument?
I am not... To me it seems you might be taking this personally because I called concept you used in your book stupid. Not that I knew you had used it in your book before you brought it up...

This is fiction. Of course it's made up! So it's nonsensical to argue over it like some kind of ideological issue. This isn't a moral conflict, there's no right and wrong, I'm merely describing how the question has been approached in works of fiction over the decades.
And I repeatedly stated it was just my opinion. But I'm talking from perspective of a person who has seen the films, and not read the tie-ins.

And ultimately the background stuff doesn't matter. What ended up on screen was talk about temporary grade reductions, and Kirk being an admiral in both TMP and TWOK. It really seems highly implausible to me that he could get a voluntary permanent demotion (is voluntary demotion a thing in any military(ish) organisation?) And then he would later accept a promotion again. Nothing in the films imply this sort of thing happened, nor it is plausible.
 
For one thing, because Tormolen told Sulu "You don't rank me," meaning "You don't outrank me," so he and Sulu were evidently meant to be the same rank. So it's inconsistent with the dialogue. For another, because it's the only use of that kind of rank stripe in the entirety of TOS, and no TOS-era character was ever identified onscreen as a lieutenant junior grade. Something that's used only once and never again is often just a mistake, or an idea that was tried and then abandoned. Proof requires repeatability.

True, the first season has a number of examples of the dialogue rank being different from the wardrobe rank, and this could be another example. But the system was made sense of eventually and the dialogue made to fit. Tormolen's insignia existed and fits the scheme, it had to have meant something or the effort would not have been taken.

Going through my old reference sources, I find that both the Concordance and Shane Johnson's Uniform Recognition Manual assert the existence of a broken-stripe lieutenant j.g. rank braid, but the Star Fleet Technical Manual jumps from ensign to full lieutenant (which is how I always believed it to go) and aridas sofia's Federation Reference Series oddly assigned the half-braid to ensign and the absence of braid (like Chekov and other onscreen ensigns had) to "ensign appointee," whatever that means.

The FJ TM is obviously not reliable as it shows three "regular" stripes for commodore, rather than the broad band seen many times (though with differing details) in TOS.

"Inconsistency" doesn't mean "accident." It means that incompatible decisions were made in different instances, whether because they were made by different people making different assumptions, or because the same people changed their minds or forgot what they'd done before.

Yes, for instance Theiss may have devised an insignia for LTJG but it never came up in the writing so was never used again.

You're talking about Starfleet as a conjecturally "real" entity. I'm talking about Star Trek as a television show and the intentions of its creators at the time. The point is, there's no clear proof that the creators of TOS intended a lieutenant j.g. rank to exist in Starfleet. Which is why fan references from the '70s and '80s disagreed on the question.

No, I'm saying the US Navy was a real known entity and it would make sense if Theiss devised a system that used that template and included that grade, just as TNG did, and the OS system of stripes would perfectly fit six officer grades (below flag) starting with zero and going up half steps to 2.5. Indeed, it would be odd to choose 2.5 for captain, rather than 3, if it were otherwise.

If LTJG did not exist at the time, one also has to imagine a fictional reason that the grade was restored, or removed and restored, which doesn't make much sense. Anyway, I can see why it may have been an inconsistency, but I'm not seeing how it was "probably" an inconsistency.

One interesting tidbit: in the TMP braid system, 0.5 (dashed braid) stood for Ensign, but everything above that at least up to Captain was the same, and there was no LTJG. Two NCO ranks were specified below Ensign. I like that better than the concept of enlisted personnel. IIRC, somewhere in TMoST there's a line about all astronauts being officers.

Enlisted personnel were always there in TOS, with numerous onscreen references despite GR's TMoST comment. As Longinus said, the idea that ensign and everyone below that wore the same insignia (that is, none) is a little hard to fathom. TMP's scheme seemed to be an attempt to remedy not having an insignia for ensign, but consequently disregarding JG, even though that grade was used in the novel.

TMP's enlisted scheme is more like the British Royal Navy, with only the two grades of petty officer, CPO and PO. For TWOK, they went with a proliferation of enlisted grades which is another jarring shift from one movie to the next.
 
No, I'm saying the US Navy was a real known entity and it would make sense if Theiss devised a system that used that template and included that grade, just as TNG did, and the OS system of stripes would perfectly fit six officer grades (below flag) starting with zero and going up half steps to 2.5.

Yes, hypothetically it would make sense, but hypothesis is not evidence. The point is not about what might have been, the point is about what canon explicitly establishes and what it doesn't. You can hypothesize anything you want, but without evidence, you can't rule out alternative hypotheses. My point is that actual evidence for a lieutenant j.g. rank in TOS is insufficient to prove anything one way or the other.

Speaking from my own personal experience as a Trek fan from 1974 onward, I didn't even know what a lieutenant j.g. was when I first started hearing about it in connection with TNG in 1987. I must've seen the term in the Concordance, but it didn't register with me, because it never came up anywhere else that I saw. As far as I know, there was never a lt. j.g. character in any of the TOS tie-in novels or comics -- lieutenants were just lieutenants. So aside from Tormolen's sleeves, there was no hint of j.g.s in TOS.

And there was definitely no lt. j.g. rank in the TMP costumes -- the single half-braid was used for ensigns there. And the fact that Sulu and Uhura went up one step in rank from lt. to lt. cmdr., and Scott went up one step from lt. cmdr. to cmdr., suggests that Chekov's promotion from ensign to solid-stripe lieutenant was meant to be a single step as well. (Although I'm aware that Kirk skipping right over commodore to admiral breaks the pattern.)


Anyway, I can see why it may have been an inconsistency, but I'm not seeing how it was "probably" an inconsistency.

One more time: Tormolen says Sulu doesn't outrank him. That means he was scripted to be a full lieutenant. So it's certainly an inconsistency in that sense, even if it can't be proven to be one in the other sense.
 
One more time: Tormolen says Sulu doesn't outrank him. That means he was scripted to be a full lieutenant. So it's certainly an inconsistency in that sense, even if it can't be proven to be one in the other sense.

Yeah. If real people were stuck inside a spaceship on a five year mission, they'd get to know their crewmates pretty well, especially the ones they work alongside. They would become very casual and unconcerned about asserting the superficial symbols of rank, because everybody knows everybody's status anyway, regardless of what they're wearing.

So if Joe Tormolen or Charlene Masters get promoted to lieutenant during the mission, they wouldn't have to make a big show of it aboard ship. They'd throw on whichever uniform was clean that day, and not worry if it was the old one without stripes.
 
...If we want to rationalize poor irrational Joe, then getting promoted to a rank to match Sulu's wouldn't help - Sulu would still "rank him" by the sheer virtue of having been to that rank first.

But the rank vs. braid issue would certainly be typically excusable through the "recent promotions" route. ST:TMP is a prime example of this: Kirk is out of his depth overall, and everybody else in the crew has been thrown together at the last minute or then promoted to all-new position or rank as needed. Say, the Rhaandarite whom Sulu knew as "Ensign" could indeed have held that very rank two and a half hours before the scene, only to find new orders awaiting him when he went to the clothes dispenser after yet another sweaty day refitting the bridge.

Timo Saloniemi
 
One more time: Tormolen says Sulu doesn't outrank him. That means he was scripted to be a full lieutenant.

It could also mean he doesn't fall under Sulu because of different departments. "Pointed ears" means Spock which everyone reports to.
 
One more time: Tormolen says Sulu doesn't outrank him. That means he was scripted to be a full lieutenant. So it's certainly an inconsistency in that sense, even if it can't be proven to be one in the other sense.

Yes, the same way that lieutenant commanders can wear two different insignia, if TOS season 1 is taken literally. Either way it is open to be retconned: Either Tormolen is a full lieutenant and "really" wears a full stripe, or the insignia represents a different rank, as it was apparently intended to do, and Tormolen's dialogue is wrong. I prefer the latter, as it fits with the insignia system and TNG better. YMMV.

So if Joe Tormolen or Charlene Masters get promoted to lieutenant during the mission, they wouldn't have to make a big show of it aboard ship. They'd throw on whichever uniform was clean that day, and not worry if it was the old one without stripes.

It's true that people in small units don't necessarily need rank insignia, but real people wear the correct insignia of their rank, both as a point of personal pride, and because it is against regulations not to do so. On a starship that can whip up a historic German army uniform in minutes, I would think that changing rank insignia would be a same-day procedure.
 
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