Datas Angry...Before the emotion chip

[Praxius]

And something else that's interesting, are the thoughts he has that seem close to emotion- like being able to miss someone.

That always seemed strange, though Data explained it rationally.

After being repeatedly exposed to a person's 'input', he begins to anticipate seeing them, and eventually misses it when absent.

And yet he at the same time he had no emotion, which seemed odd.

It can be done.... one can easily become acustomed to a regular routine after a period of time and find it difficult to adjust to a new one after so long..... emotions do not need to relate in this aspect.

There is a difference between being acustomed to something and missing something.

I actually watched Redemption II last night before I went to bed and confirmed my own view on his reactions. He certainly wasn't foaming at the mouth or screaming at the top of his lungs with the bitch-slap hand ready in the air..... it was what was required to be done in a very limited time to track the romulans while cloaked or miss the opportunity altogether, while at the same time dealing with an insubordinate jerk-wag who doesn't seem to be able to take orders unless they're yelled at him first.

And if he did feel any true emotions over the whole matter, one would think he'd still have a bit of a grudge afterwards in his tone, haul him off duty and confine him to quarters, write up a report, etc. etc. ...... instead, he told him to carry on with raditation cleanup and repairs as if nothing ever happened and never spoke of it again to my knowledge.

And DevilEyes you propose an interesting reasoning, but I don't see the logic in it based on my own views of each of those episodes everyone keeps bringing up, nor do they match my own understanding of what emotions are to me.

But to each their own..... you could very well be right.

 

[DivineSugar]

And something else that's interesting, are the thoughts he has that seem close to emotion- like being able to miss someone.

That always seemed strange, though Data explained it rationally.

After being repeatedly exposed to a person's 'input', he begins to anticipate seeing them, and eventually misses it when absent.

And yet he at the same time he had no emotion, which seemed odd.

It can be done.... one can easily become accustomed to a regular routine after a period of time and find it difficult to adjust to a new one after so long..... emotions do not need to relate in this aspect.

There is a difference between being acustomed to something and missing something.

I actually watched Redemption II last night before I went to bed and confirmed my own view on his reactions. He certainly wasn't foaming at the mouth or screaming at the top of his lungs with the bitch-slap hand ready in the air..... it was what was required to be done in a very limited time to track the romulans while cloaked or miss the opportunity altogether, while at the same time dealing with an insubordinate jerk-wag who doesn't seem to be able to take orders unless they're yelled at him first.

And if he did feel any true emotions over the whole matter, one would think he'd still have a bit of a grudge afterwards in his tone, haul him off duty and confine him to quarters, write up a report, etc. etc. ...... instead, he told him to carry on with raditation cleanup and repairs as if nothing ever happened and never spoke of it again to my knowledge.

And DevilEyes you propose an interesting reasoning, but I don't see the logic in it based on my own views of each of those episodes everyone keeps bringing up, nor do they match my own understanding of what emotions are to me.

But to each their own..... you could very well be right.

Well, yes I do think he was patterning after what a human captain would do in that situation. I mean he's still an android, and he writes up programs in his brain that he can use to pattern his actions after human actions etc. But I do think he has emotions. Someone earlier said that he is like the Tin Man, and already had "everything he needed" but just didn't know it. That's how I feel he is. Yes there is a difference between being accustomed and missing. But missing is like an emotion, right? I feel that it is, I mean missing a person. I know this argument is used a lot, but Data did miss Tasha, and I think that requires some kind of emotion. But I want to comment about that episode Redemption part II. When Data finds the hidden Romulan ships (after he yells at Hobson some more to get him to follow orders to uncloak them) he gives him one more order (I forget what it was) and then he walks away towards the camera. Well Hobson finally calls him "Captain" after everything is said and done, Data finally gets his respect. Look at the expression on Data's face, I think it shows a subtle hint of satisfaction and accomplishment because Hobson respects him now. I personally think it was his emotions. I mean they didn't have to show that but they did.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Here's another problem - bring holodeck characters into the mix, and it become even more complex and muddled.

The holodeck characters are programmed to show and display emotions, yet are not taken seriously at all. It's as if, even if they do show realistic emotions, they aren't real, just a facsimile.



Heres something interesting, years ago, I studied a book on artificial intelligence that laid out the plans on how to construct a 'program' or machine, that could anticipate input, and expect it.

Today there are programs that do it now, even in windows.

Imagine programing an artificial 'emotion' reaction to missed input- disappointment, anger, ect.- and voila! you got an artificial reaction without emotion..

I think Data didn't feel anything when he 'yelled' at his first officer- he just used a stern tone of voice like any officer would have done, human or not.

 

[Praxius]

Another thing that occured to me, while watching "Force of Nature" last night was that while Data and LaForge were talking about Spot and how to train him, Geordi mentioned using a phaser on low stun to train his cat and Data didn't get that he was joking and took it literally. He didn't know he was joking until he said he was joking.

I think the purpose of the emotion chip would be something like a plug n play adapter in your computer like a sound card or video card. It's something that helps you calculate and process a specific thing faster and more efficiently. He may understand the concept of humor, pain, sadness, etc..... but he didn't have the processor required to respond properly to those things like a typical humanoid would.

If he just eventually grew on his own to understand and respond properly to emotions without the chip, then yes, I'd agree on the whole Tin Man theory of him always having it, but the series put way too much focus on him not having any and too much focus on the importance of the emotion chip for Data to have emotions, that I don't think there is enough logical justification to claim he always had emotions.

just an additional two cents of mine.

 

[DivineSugar]

Indeed, that was part of his character the idea that he could not have emotions so they used that a lot.. but in Data's Day it was Data that said he will continue learning and growing and becoming more than what he is. I would say a lot of emphasis was put on that, at that point too. I just can't help but think that there was more to him than what he was...so much so that I don't think he even needed the emotion chip.

 

[FreddyE]

Another thing that occured to me, while watching "Force of Nature" last night was that while Data and LaForge were talking about Spot and how to train him, Geordi mentioned using a phaser on low stun to train his cat

When Data says "I can not stun my cat" (or something like this) he sounds genuinly troubled by the thought.

 

[DonIago]

...but again, he could just be affecting the emotion rather than experiencing it. No way to know for sure.

 

[CoveTom]

^ If he's just mimicking emotions, how would you explain his nervous finger tapping he does in "Data's Day" that surprises even him?

 

[DonIago]

Being programmed to exhibit the outward evidence of emotions is not the same thing as possessing them.

 

[CoveTom]

That's true, but if it were all the result of a program, why wouldn't Data be aware of that? Why would he be surprised when he realized he was doing it?

 

[DonIago]

Because he was programmed to be.
Seriously? Given that Data was programmed with a switch Soong could flip that would override him basically completely, it's easy enough for me to believe there could be other processes running within him which he was unaware of.

 

[FreddyE]

Well..if you put it that way...OUR emotions aren´t anything other then "processes" either...

 

[DonIago]

True enough.

We could just as easily ask whether The Doctor really had emotions or was just adept at simulating them, though. There's no pat answer.