• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Data is a sociopath

john titor

Captain
Seriously, like the time he was about to kill that collector dude and then lies about it to Riker. True he had been imprisoned, the collector dude had murdered that woman etc but Datas cold calculated actions speak for themselves. In addition The whole Descent debacle and other "malfunctions," what about the time he says to the swamp thing that he should be destroyed, hardly the words on an enlightened 24th century android man and more in line with 20th century simplifications. In addition the time he gets angry at his girlfriend, way off, even if he was having "a lovers quarrel" I'm sure anyone in her position would be a bit freaked out.
 
I kind of agree - always had a problem with people in the 24th century being okay with AI having "rights"... Did they lose all the cautionary tales of AI killing the fuck out of everyone? Skynet, hello? Hell, even Voyager's doctor makes some comment one time in early season 1 about how he shouldn't be allowed to control his own program... right before they gave him the ability to control his own program.
 
What's the connection between the first post and the second? The OP is saying that Data was not a nice guy when he behaved like a human; the reply seems to be that AIs are bad news. Shouldn't the conclusion be that humans are bad news, and should be banned from existing?

Timo Saloniemi
 
Actually, I believe the OP was that Data was a sociopath. I agreed, saying that I don't think you can trust AI in general (Data is an AI life form, in case you were confused) and I expanded that out to include the Doctor from Voyager (another AI life form). This is not an incredible fucking leap in logic...
 
At least Data has some sort of programming to tell him what to do and what not to. You and me, we're unlimited in our ability to be sociopaths, and to do those things Data shouldn't have done. If the aim is to make the world a better place, starting the ethnic purges from humans would yield greater improvements...

Timo Saloniemi
 
Okay, this is nuts. Data has a (inborn? programmed?) respect for life. Kivas Fajo knew that and expressed his intention to use it against Data to enslave him and kill people unless Data submitted to his every whim. Data obviously struggled to come up with alternatives, but eventually decided that he had to shoot Fajo. It doesn't mean he was a sociopath. Picard, Riker, Geordi, or anybody else you want to name would have made the same decision. He "lied" to Riker about it afterward because he was ashamed that he had to make that choice.

The "Descent" situation was just bad writing. As far as his simulated "lovers' quarrel" in "In Theory", there was no emotion behind it. It was one of those "Data tries and fails to simulate human behavior" moments that the writers always seemed to think were hilarious.
 
^ This. And besides, you could be as pro-live-and-let-live as you like, but there will still come a time where killing someone is unavidable. And in Descent, his morality program was disabled, and he could no longer discern right from wrong, and the borg were projecting onto him negative emotions.
 
Seriously, like the time he was about to kill that collector dude and then lies about it to Riker.

He didn't lie about it. Riker said that they noticed the pasher was in discharge at the moment of transport.... Data said something must have happened during transport.... and something did happen.

He just didn't elaborate.

True he had been imprisoned, the collector dude had murdered that woman etc but Datas cold calculated actions speak for themselves.
I disagree. He said he respected all life and was willing to protect that life. In the end, it appeared as though he calculated the logic of his position and it made sense for him to kill one life in order to protect additional lives threatened by Fajo. Without removal of Kivas Fajo's life from the equation, he would remain captive against his will and therefore continually be used/threatened to do as he is told or else another life would die because of his refusal to allow his personal freedoms to be oppressed.

In addition The whole Descent debacle and other "malfunctions," what about the time he says to the swamp thing that he should be destroyed, hardly the words on an enlightened 24th century android man and more in line with 20th century simplifications.
There were no redeeming qualities to the creature, which continually threatened the health and lives of those he cared for, as well as anybody else who might encounter the being in the future.... once again, his desire to protect all living creatures faced the difficult choice between protecting one life that threatens many other lives, or protect those many other lives at the expense of the one life of the treat.

In regards to Descent, his actions and thinking was influenced against his knowledge or will and his moral parameters to tell him right and wrong were being blocked... therefore he was not responsible for his actions, anymore then someone who was brainwashed or suffering from a complication of the mind would be responsible.

In addition the time he gets angry at his girlfriend, way off, even if he was having "a lovers quarrel" I'm sure anyone in her position would be a bit freaked out.
He was attempting to simulate conflict within a relationship which he figured was a part of all relationships.... he did not conduct himself to purposely threaten or otherwise harm her and simply didn't understand how it all worked.

A sociopath?

sociopath - someone with a sociopathic personality; a person with an antisocial personality disorder (`psychopath' was once widely used but has now been superseded by `sociopath')

#1 antisocial - shunning contact with others; "standoffish and antisocial"; "he's not antisocial; just shy"
#2 antisocial - hostile to or disruptive of normal standards of social behavior; "criminal behavior or conduct that violates the rights of other individuals is antisocial"; "crimes...and other asocial behavior"; "an antisocial deed"


Doesn't fit Data imo.
 
You seem to have confused "sociopath" with "evil dude" or "jerk".

Fortunately, The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders provides a handy diagnostic checklist for sociopathy, or as it is now called "antisocial personality disorder":
A) There is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and the rights of others occurring since the age of 15, as indicated by three (or more) of the following:

1. failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest;
2. deceitfulness, as indicated by repeatedly lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure;
3. impulsivity or failure to plan ahead;
4. irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults;
5. reckless disregard for safety of self or others;
6. consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations;
7. lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another.

B) The individual is at least 18 years of age.

C) There is evidence of Conduct disorder with onset before age 15.

D) The occurrence of antisocial behavior is not exclusively during the course of schizophrenia or a manic episode.
A1) Nope, Data is scrupulously law-abiding.
A2) Data rarely lies, and then only when it is vital to do so. He never takes pleasure from it.
A3) Data may seem impulsive, but only because he is capable of thinking much faster than humans. If questioned, it will be clear that he considered the risks and acted in a reasoned manner.
A4) Data has never been seen commiting assault.
A5) Data is always conscious of the safety of others.
A5) Consistant is a very good word for Data's work behavior.
A7) On those few occasions where his actions have harmed others, Data has indeed shown remorse.
B) Special Case: Data is well over 18, but has almost no experience with emotions, so on those occasions where he is experiencing emotion, he may well count as being under 18. Note that the reason someone must be over 18 to be diagnosed with this disorder is that basically ALL adolescents act this way, and one of the reasons for that is strengthening of the emotional neural pathways in their brain: they are experiencing emotions much more strongly than they ever have before.

Lore, on the other hand, seems to be a textbook case.

Data is much more like Asbergers: he has no empathy, no emotions of his own, and has a hard time both simulating them and predicting others emotional response.
 
Hell, Data behaved himself better in general than most human beings. No problems here, none at all.

Agreed. The main reason behind it is that Soong built into Data an 'ethical program'. This is the same program that Lore switched off, and Picard & Co. later re-booted in Descent.
 
Data is much more like Asbergers: he has no empathy, no emotions of his own, and has a hard time both simulating them and predicting others emotional response.
Hmm, I had just prepared a post disagreeing with you, saying that he does have emotions and just doesn't understand them, but I did some quick reading on Asperger's and the way it can affect emotions describes Data perfectly. So all I'm going to say is that people with Asperger's (and Data) have emotions, they just often have difficulty understanding them.
However, this is all futile, since Data does not have any mental, emotional, or psychological disabilities. He's not human, he was designed by Doctor Soong, and as far as we know he works pretty much the way he's supposed to. He's an artificial intelligence, so he's limited in some ways, but that doesn't make him a sociopath, autistic, a sufferer of Asperger's syndrome, or anything else along those lines.
 
Following a notification, I've reviewed this thread, alongside a number of other similar threads. My call is that this particular thread (inc. the opening post) has legitimate content, and has also generated some good discussion, so unlike the Lore thread (which I locked for lacking any meaningful OP content to base a thread on), I'm leaving this one open.
 
Data is much more like Asbergers: he has no empathy, no emotions of his own, and has a hard time both simulating them and predicting others emotional response.
Hmm, I had just prepared a post disagreeing with you, saying that he does have emotions and just doesn't understand them, but I did some quick reading on Asperger's and the way it can affect emotions describes Data perfectly. So all I'm going to say is that people with Asperger's (and Data) have emotions, they just often have difficulty understanding them.
However, this is all futile, since Data does not have any mental, emotional, or psychological disabilities. He's not human, he was designed by Doctor Soong, and as far as we know he works pretty much the way he's supposed to. He's an artificial intelligence, so he's limited in some ways, but that doesn't make him a sociopath, autistic, a sufferer of Asperger's syndrome, or anything else along those lines.

But somebody with Asperger's would act like Data.
 
High-functioning autists have it a lot harder than Data; when Data does something socially retarded, Data doesn't have to feel bad about it.
 
People with Autistic Spectrum Disorders still have emotions...Data Doesn't have emotions to even begin with
 
I dunno. On one hand I just wanted data to say "this unit must survive". Once again, the machine is controlling the machine, and major errors can occur, such as highjacking a starship. On the other hand, data was superbly programmed and in many cases made the best decisions. Even the best humans make mistakes.
 
Considering Data's actions and motivations are driven without an emotional guide or foundation, yeah I suppose he is a sociopath.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top