Darmok

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Or, as I prefer to say, "Reagan, at the end".

I guess my complete lack of understanding the above phrase proves the point how important cultural background is in understanding Tamarian language (and other, based of metaphors, languages)

It's a mean comment about Reagan having Alzheimer's disease. You didn't miss out on anything worth understanding.

Wossie and Brand on Andrew Sachs's answering machine.

 

[Tora Ziyal]

Or, as I prefer to say, "Reagan, at the end".

I guess my complete lack of understanding the above phrase proves the point how important cultural background is in understanding Tamarian language (and other, based of metaphors, languages)

It's a mean comment about Reagan having Alzheimer's disease. You didn't miss out on anything worth understanding.

I don't understand, NG. Why do you think Holdfast's comment is mean?

 

[Christopher]

^Because it's mean to make fun of the memory loss of someone who's suffering from Alzheimer's Disease. I was no fan of Reagan as a politician, and there are plenty of things he deserved to be mocked for, but that isn't one of them.

 

[Tora Ziyal]

^ I totally agree. Except I didn't see the metaphor as mocking Reagan, but as mocking Holdfast himself.

 

[Sandoval]

^ I totally agree. Except I didn't see the metaphor as mocking Reagan, but as mocking Holdfast himself.

How exactly can a person making a derisive reference to another person's deteriorating mental state be construed as them mocking themselves?

 

[Tora Ziyal]

^ This is what Holdfast posted: "You know, it's been so long that I don't actually remember. Or, as I prefer to say, 'Reagan, at the end'." He was using the Reagan metaphor to refer to his own poor memory. If others see that as derisive, so be it, but I don't. I see it as a neutral description.

 

[22 Stars]

Picard, with face in palm

 

[Alrik]

^ I totally agree. Except I didn't see the metaphor as mocking Reagan, but as mocking Holdfast himself.

How exactly can a person making a derisive reference to another person's deteriorating mental state be construed as them mocking themselves?

If anything, Holdfast's comment might just be a perfect example of this thread's primary theme. To understand what was meant, one would also have to understand not only the context, but also the tone. To understand the context, one would have to not just know who Reagan was, but also that he was taken by alzheimers. If there was nothing else to frame the line 'Reagan, at the end', it would be difficult to understand the tone and actually be able to draw meaning from it. However, the line preceding it refered to Holdfast's inabilty to remember something. This lead me to read it as Holdfast poking fun at Holdfast via metaphor. In my mind it was no different from me saying, "hang with me here, I'm having a 'senior' moment". I didn't feel it was derisive, I thought it was pretty clever.

 

[Holdfast]

Good lord, what a fuss over nothing. From my perspective it was said in an affectionate tone, paralleling my own specific lack of memory regarding the OP's question in a metaphorical way to someone famous with general memory problems (Reagan was simply the first such person to come to mind).

It's of course entirely up to you whether you found it funny or mean.

(FWIW, I think Reagan was an excellent President, notable for his intuitive understanding of the fundamental importance of psychology in influencing electorates and global geopolitics. Which is probably a sentence likely to draw even more controversy than the original gag, considering the political centre of gravity of a Star Trek board! )

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

It would have been nice to have a follow-up episode based on the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis -perhaps involving why the Klingon language might induce agressive behaviour - but mainly because of the similarity of Whorf to Worf.

 

[22 Stars]

Ok, I'll bite.

The millions who died of AIDS in the 80's and beyond would disagree with your assertion of Reagan being an 'excellent' president They would disagree, if they weren't dead of course, because he refused to act quickly and with conviction as any good president would, when faced with a plague of AIDS like proportions. He failed miserably in this respect, and thus cannot by any stretch of the imagination be considered an 'excellent' president.

 

[Alrik]

Nope. This really is TNG. For a minute I thought I was in TNZ.

 

[22 Stars]

Thanks for playing, we return you now to your regularly scheduled TNG thread.

 

[Christopher]

It would have been nice to have a follow-up episode based on the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis -perhaps involving why the Klingon language might induce agressive behaviour - but mainly because of the similarity of Whorf to Worf.

When Deanna was trying to get Worf to be more romantic, was she testing the Sappier Worf hypothesis?

 

[Holdfast]

Thanks for playing, we return you now to your regularly scheduled TNG thread.

 

[Gary7]

Holdfast, don't let that reaction impress upon you that we Americans are all like this. I got what you meant and didn't see any disrespect. I liked him as a person, but found he made some terrible decisions (among several good ones though) and it was sad at what he suffered in the end. But, it does represent a kind of tragedy.

Sokath, his eyes uncovered!

I once mumbled under my breath in the company of non-Trekkers the phrase "Shaka, when the walls fell" (I was fixing something for a friend and a screw fell into a narrow crevace, chaos being the opportunist it is). I got a couple of queer looks, then one said "Oh, I'll bet it has something to do with Star Trek" [laughter].

 

[Tora Ziyal]

(FWIW, I think Reagan was an excellent President, notable for his intuitive understanding of the fundamental importance of psychology in influencing electorates and global geopolitics. Which is probably a sentence likely to draw even more controversy than the original gag, considering the political centre of gravity of a Star Trek board! )

Ok, I'll bite.

The millions who died of AIDS in the 80's and beyond would disagree with your assertion of Reagan being an 'excellent' president They would disagree, if they weren't dead of course, because he refused to act quickly and with conviction as any good president would, when faced with a plague of AIDS like proportions. He failed miserably in this respect, and thus cannot by any stretch of the imagination be considered an 'excellent' president.

Many of his policies were disasters. I have very, very little positive to say about the man. But I have to admit, Holdfast has a good point about his understanding of the role of psychology in politics.

It would have been nice to have a follow-up episode based on the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis -perhaps involving why the Klingon language might induce agressive behaviour - but mainly because of the similarity of Whorf to Worf.

When Deanna was trying to get Worf to be more romantic, was she testing the Sappier Worf hypothesis?

Nice.

 

[Holdfast]

OK, I started the sidetrack down the politics/legacy aspect of Reagan earlier this evening, but in hindsight, it's not the right forum even for that quick political aside. Now you guys have had time for a few posts as "right of reply" to my parenthetical comment, we probably should leave further political discussion for a more political venue.

 

[horatio83]

If anything, Holdfast's comment might just be a perfect example of this thread's primary theme. To understand what was meant, one would also have to understand not only the context, but also the tone. To understand the context, one would have to not just know who Reagan was, but also that he was taken by alzheimers. If there was nothing else to frame the line 'Reagan, at the end', it would be difficult to understand the tone and actually be able to draw meaning from it. However, the line preceding it refered to Holdfast's inabilty to remember something. This lead me to read it as Holdfast poking fun at Holdfast via metaphor. In my mind it was no different from me saying, "hang with me here, I'm having a 'senior' moment". I didn't feel it was derisive, I thought it was pretty clever.

Well said. Not being a US citizen and not knowing that Reagan suffered from Alzheimer's I did not understand the line when I first glanced over the thread.
There are many such Tamarian-like, mythology-based metaphors in our own language. Take "scapegoat", how is somebody unfamiliar with the bible and the Israelite idea of sacrificing a goat to atone for sins supposed to understand what the words means.

Ok, I'll bite.

The millions who died of AIDS in the 80's and beyond would disagree with your assertion of Reagan being an 'excellent' president They would disagree, if they weren't dead of course, because he refused to act quickly and with conviction as any good president would, when faced with a plague of AIDS like proportions. He failed miserably in this respect, and thus cannot by any stretch of the imagination be considered an 'excellent' president.

Holdfast intentionally wrote it ambiguously. You can read it literally as "Reagan was a great president" or ironically as "Reagan was a crypto-fascist".

 

[22 Stars]

Holdfast intentionally wrote it ambiguously. You can read it literally as "Reagan was a great president" or ironically as "Reagan was a crypto-fascist".

Actually he didn't, he said "FWIW he thinks that Reagan was an excellent president," and I strongly disagree, that's all. Nothing ambiguous about his opinion or mine, and I have no problem with him having or expressing it.