Darmok
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I'm afraid I don't recall, it was about 20 years ago since I first saw it.
In honesty, I don't think the concept holds up to close scrutiny, but that's never bothered me. It's still my favourite ever episode, and I don't have a problem suspending belief. Indeed, I'm looking forward to seeing it in HD eventually.
In honesty, I don't think the concept holds up to close scrutiny, but that's never bothered me. It's still my favourite ever episode, and I don't have a problem suspending belief. Indeed, I'm looking forward to seeing it in HD eventually.
I'm afraid I don't recall, it was about 20 years ago since I first saw it.
In honesty, I don't think the concept holds up to close scrutiny, but that's never bothered me. It's still my favourite ever episode, and I don't have a problem suspending belief. Indeed, I'm looking forward to seeing it in HD eventually.
yeah, one of those cases where the clever premise takes precedence over realism. I question how a language like that would evolve and how well it would work for a technologically advanced civilization.
You know, it's been so long that I don't actually remember.
Or, as I prefer to say, "Reagan, at the end".
I'm afraid I don't recall, it was about 20 years ago since I first saw it.
In honesty, I don't think the concept holds up to close scrutiny, but that's never bothered me. It's still my favourite ever episode, and I don't have a problem suspending belief. Indeed, I'm looking forward to seeing it in HD eventually.
yeah, one of those cases where the clever premise takes precedence over realism. I question how a language like that would evolve and how well it would work for a technologically advanced civilization.
That complaint has always struck me as missing the forest for the tree.
The story is about humans encountering an alien species whose form of communication is so foreign to the way humans think that interspecies communication is almost impossible.
It's unrealistic to expect any humans, let alone TNG's staff writers, to come up with such a system. The metaphor-based communication works well enough for the purposes of the episode. To complain of the unrealisticness of this human-conceived depiction of something humans couldn't conceive, is to say the story isn't worth telling in the first place.
I wrote a "Darmok" followup story, "Friends With the Sparrows," for the TNG anthology The Sky's the Limit, and I did a fair amount of research and theorizing to make as much sense of the language as I could. My notes took the form of an essay which I posted on my website, and which can be read here:
http://home.fuse.net/ChristopherLBennett/Tamarian grammar.htm
An excerpt:
I also assumed in the story proper that a lot of Tamarian communication was nonverbal, through gesture and body language and subtle variations in tone of voice -- like a more extreme version of the use of tones in Chinese, where the same syllable can have four completely separate meanings depending on how it's intoned, so if you don't pay attention to the tone, you're missing a lot of the meaning. (Or like sarcastic diction in English -- the same sentence can convey two opposite meanings just by changing your voice and expression when you deliver it.) So while the universal translator was able to convert the words, it was still missing a lot of the underlying meaning of the language, meaning that would've been clear to the Tamarians.
Note that my essay contains links to two other major analyses of Tamarian language, both of which were deeply helpful.
http://home.fuse.net/ChristopherLBennett/Tamarian grammar.htm
An excerpt:
I also assumed in the story proper that a lot of Tamarian communication was nonverbal, through gesture and body language and subtle variations in tone of voice -- like a more extreme version of the use of tones in Chinese, where the same syllable can have four completely separate meanings depending on how it's intoned, so if you don't pay attention to the tone, you're missing a lot of the meaning. (Or like sarcastic diction in English -- the same sentence can convey two opposite meanings just by changing your voice and expression when you deliver it.) So while the universal translator was able to convert the words, it was still missing a lot of the underlying meaning of the language, meaning that would've been clear to the Tamarians.
Note that my essay contains links to two other major analyses of Tamarian language, both of which were deeply helpful.
You know, it's been so long that I don't actually remember.
Or, as I prefer to say, "Reagan, at the end".
Great one, Holdfast. 
Christopher, thanks for citing your earlier writing about the subject. Very interesting read.
I find that an easy way to appreciate "Darmok" is to see it symbolically, that the language has so very unusual references that stump the universal translator. Whether it is simply an alien grammar not aligned with constructs the universal translator is designed to accept, or contextual references that are completely unknown, communication is not immediately possible.
My main beef with the "speaking in metaphor" thing is that this simply doesn't work for technology. The time it would take to develop anything using only metaphoric references would be astoundingly long, and probably too problematic for anything complex as a warp drive. In reality, I could see the Tamarians using metaphor communication as a colloquial or informal language that is extremely private due to the inability for universal translators to understand it. But for practical purposes, they would have a language more productive for academic pursuits and communicating with beings from other worlds.
I dunno, I once had mass spectrometry explained through the analogy of throwing apples at birds
^Well, like I said in the essay, maybe they approach technological issues the way we approach music, by using mostly written notation to communicate the ideas rather than verbalizations. The thing to keep in mind is that nobody communicates in only one way. Humans supplement spoken language with various other modes of communication, like writing, symbols, body language, intonation, clothing, masks, etc. My take on the Tamarians is that they do the same, but the ratio of nonverbal to verbal communication is higher.
I'm afraid I don't recall, it was about 20 years ago since I first saw it.
In honesty, I don't think the concept holds up to close scrutiny, but that's never bothered me. It's still my favourite ever episode, and I don't have a problem suspending belief. Indeed, I'm looking forward to seeing it in HD eventually.
yeah, one of those cases where the clever premise takes precedence over realism. I question how a language like that would evolve and how well it would work for a technologically advanced civilization.
That complaint has always struck me as missing the forest for the tree.
The story is about humans encountering an alien species whose form of communication is so foreign to the way humans think that interspecies communication is almost impossible.
It's unrealistic to expect any humans, let alone TNG's staff writers, to come up with such a system. The metaphor-based communication works well enough for the purposes of the episode. To complain of the unrealisticness of this human-conceived depiction of something humans couldn't conceive, is to say the story isn't worth telling in the first place.
I didn't say it wasn't worth telling. As you say, it's worthwhile as a metaphor. Just don't examine the practicality of the language too closely, that's all.
I think a lot of episodes require suspending belief, but I don't enjoy them any less for that. I mean, this is science fiction.
Or, as I prefer to say, "Reagan, at the end".
Beautiful!
This is a great discussion. Thank you for sharing your insights and writings, in particular, Christopher and captrek. I always liked this episode, but felt that it would be pretty difficult for the Tamarians to deal with an order like "Change course heading to 118 mark 07 and rotate shield frequencies." I like the idea that the more technical vocabulary would be treated as we treat musical notations and agree that I should have suspended my disbelief a bit more to appreciate the fact that writers with human brains are not going to be able to come up with a truly alien, incomprehensible language that the viewers are then going to be able to say "Oh.. NOW I get it!" at the end of an hour long episode. Then again, it has been years since I saw the episode.....
It was also a little bit of nerdy fun to use some of the phrases back in grad school when TNG was airing. When running certain experiments, "Shaka- when the walls fell!" came in particularly handy! ("Frell" and "Frack" could have come in handy, too, in those instances!)
It was also a little bit of nerdy fun to use some of the phrases back in grad school when TNG was airing. When running certain experiments, "Shaka- when the walls fell!" came in particularly handy! ("Frell" and "Frack" could have come in handy, too, in those instances!)
Riker and Troi were searching through computer records and found several references to Shantil III (apparently the name of the Tamarian homeworld) and managed to piece together some of the Tamarian phrases from that.
As for the Tak Tak communication: I believe they will repeatedly ask you to "don't stop, make it pop, DJ blow my speakers up". Oh wait, no, that's TiK ToK communication. Never mind.
Actually Data & Troi figured out the metaphor angle right around the same time Picard did, by analyzing the communications with the Tamarians. My guess is that by using Data's processing & cross referencing abilities, they could have come up with a working usage of their language, in short order, enough to understand some of the more important points the Tamarians were making, i.e. Jalad... Darmok... Tanagra etc...
After all, wasn't it Data that translated Riva's sign language from nothing, in rather short order? That would seem to be far more difficult
After all, wasn't it Data that translated Riva's sign language from nothing, in rather short order? That would seem to be far more difficult
In that episode when Troi gives her little speech about language and uses the cup of water example I keep wishing that Picard would respond by getting out some cups/bowls/bottles in different forms such as hot/iced/frozen but all containing water and have him simply say several times "water" while pointing to them and watch her respond.
The difference is that Picard was actually interacting directly with a Tamarian who was trying to communicate with him, whereas Dathon's first officer wasn't interested in talking to Riker or his crew. So only Picard had the level of interaction necessary to let him put the pieces he knew into context and build on those starting points.
Data learned Riva's sign language so quickly because it was already in the ship's computer banks. He just had to teach himself a language that was already known and understood. That's very different from having to decipher a new language from scratch.
Or, as I prefer to say, "Reagan, at the end".
I guess my complete lack of understanding the above phrase proves the point how important cultural background is in understanding Tamarian language (and other, based of metaphors, languages)
Or, as I prefer to say, "Reagan, at the end".
I guess my complete lack of understanding the above phrase proves the point how important cultural background is in understanding Tamarian language (and other, based of metaphors, languages)
It's a mean comment about Reagan having Alzheimer's disease. You didn't miss out on anything worth understanding.
I think Data actually narrowed the search down to 5 different possible languages & learns them all, to better extrapolate what Riva was saying, which isn't entirely different from finding the major talking points of the Tamarian language in historical accounts throughout their data banks. For you or me it would take a long time, but for Data? Cross referencing & engine searching bits of info is what he does. "Computer, cross reference the name Shaka with an event where walls fell."
Frankly, when you or me hear that phrase "Shaka when the walls fell" it's not a big leap to extrapolate based on the described event coupled with the attitude & body language of the speaker, that he might be referring to a failure of some kind. Point being that a major component of communication is reading the body language & demeanor of the speaker. It's even necessary when you speak a common language
which brings me to the only thing about "Darmok" that kind of bugs me, in an otherwise enjoyable episode. Picard is a really intelligent guy, & I found it rather dim of him to not make a better effort at communicating through body language
A being holds up 2 knives, says some gobbledegook, & then throws one at your feet. It's possible he wants you to use it to fight him... or not. Frankly, you don't completely understand enough. So pick it up, hold it out, & gesture to yourself with your other hand, & say "Me?" Then point to it & say "Use this?" Then point to him & say "On You?" then you start shaking in a negative way, & run through it again "Nooooooo! I Won't use THIS on You" gesturing as you go. Now you've attempted to communicate something, when you then toss it back at his feet, unlike Picard who just tosses it back & mumbles something
He only communicated that he was unwilling to accept the offering, which in another situation might have been an insult to a foreigner. Maybe that knife was a gift. Frankly, I found it hard to swallow that a seasoned intergalactic negotiator of alien races would be that dim. I mean this is the same dude who out maneuvered the Sheliak
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