Darmok
- Thread starter Rulius
- Start date
OMG, that is awesome!!!! (rushes over to "like")
My friend Frank loved the captain's new jacket so much he begged my wife to make him one. This resulted in the three of us sitting in front of the TV with Darmok on tape, rewinding, plating, freeze-framing, rewinding, playing, freeze-framing, while my wife made sketches.
There were two results: a jacket so well done that Majel Barret told Frank at a con that it was the best one she'd seen so far; and my wife refuses to ever watch Darmok again.
GREAT STORY!!!!!!
Darmok is on my top five list for sure. I just love this episode. Especially touching is the closing shot of Picard through the window of his ready room.
Darmok and Jalad at Yankee Stadium:
"Shaka, when the Mariners fell."
"A-Rod, his bat swinging."
"Girardi, his army with batting gloves open...Girardi, his army with batting gloves *closed*."
"Darmok, on the ocean" (of beer).
Darmok and Jalad at the deli:
"Temba, his mouth wide."
"Pastrami, its sandwich bread, its meat red!"
"Kiazi's children, their faces stuffed."
"Mirab, with deli tickets unfurled."
"Shaka, when the Mariners fell."
"A-Rod, his bat swinging."
"Girardi, his army with batting gloves open...Girardi, his army with batting gloves *closed*."
"Darmok, on the ocean" (of beer).
Darmok and Jalad at the deli:
"Temba, his mouth wide."
"Pastrami, its sandwich bread, its meat red!"
"Kiazi's children, their faces stuffed."
"Mirab, with deli tickets unfurled."
This is a great episode because of the way that the audience understanding advances at exactly the same pace as Picard's understanding. Usually the audience either runs ahead of the story and then waits for the characters to catch up, or (much more rarely) the story runs ahead of the audience and they get really confused. It was nice that you experience Picard's realization along with him, and marvel at the revelation.
The problem with the episode in the context of Star Trek as a whole is that, of course, this problem would happen with every single race they encountered. We are constantly using metaphors to express ideas (Geordi and Scotty can barely describe anything to do with the engines without couching it in metaphor), which would not be translatable by the universal translator (an idea that basically breaks down the more you think about it).
However that's a larger scale problem that doesn't impinge on the beauty of the Darmok story.
The problem with the episode in the context of Star Trek as a whole is that, of course, this problem would happen with every single race they encountered. We are constantly using metaphors to express ideas (Geordi and Scotty can barely describe anything to do with the engines without couching it in metaphor), which would not be translatable by the universal translator (an idea that basically breaks down the more you think about it).
However that's a larger scale problem that doesn't impinge on the beauty of the Darmok story.
To me, Darmok is about the superiority of the Star Trek ideal, about the triumph of peace and understanding over violent confrontation. I love the moment when Picard strides onto the bridge and confidently addresses the Tamarians in their own language, to the complete shock of Riker and the bridge crew.
People who complain about how the Tamarians' language couldn't actually exist, or about the Enterprise firing phasers out of the torpedo tubes, are missing the point, IMO.
People who complain about how the Tamarians' language couldn't actually exist, or about the Enterprise firing phasers out of the torpedo tubes, are missing the point, IMO.
My only two nitpicks were:
1: Why did they get the news about their captain being killed from Picard, when their sensors should have detected that already?
2: How did Picard build the fire on the second night?
But ubernerd tendencies aside, dramatically it worked very well. One of my favorite episodes.
1: Why did they get the news about their captain being killed from Picard, when their sensors should have detected that already?
2: How did Picard build the fire on the second night?
But ubernerd tendencies aside, dramatically it worked very well. One of my favorite episodes.
PICARD.....
HIS FACE IN HIS PALM.....
I liked this episode as well and was one of the ones that defined TNG.
My only gripe was the phaser shooting out of the main torpedo tube.
This is how I interpreted the "language barrier" in this episode.
First of all, it's likely they've a much more advanced, or even telepathic, way of communicating in order to learn and develop. They only talk to "lesser species" who aren't capable of the more advanced way of talking. Sort of similar to how when The Traveler is asked what his name is he says, "Yeah, you won't be able to pronounce it so just call me something random."
As for the metaphor thing, I think of it thiss way. When the alien says "Darmok and Jihad and Tinagra" (or whatever it was) that's not what he's "really saying." He's saying something in some bizzare alien language. The universal translator is working! It's just that the translation itself doesn't make sense because the crew doesn't know the stories behind the metaphors.
The aliens have a "Darmok and Jihad at Tinagara" like story that likely contains the names in thier own mythology not to mention the preopositions, conjuctions and such-what. The translator "somehow" takes "Quqyuii ze Uhaguo gof Llwo'tu" and makes it "Darmok and Jihad at Tinagra."
How it does this is anyone's guess, it doesn't make any sense it can instantly translate an alien language that was just discovered either, so we just roll with it because it "has to" exsist for the show to work.
In the scene with the dying alien captain and Picard we do see a bit more "complexity" to the alien language when it is able to tell the story to Picard and Picard is able to understand the story, interpret it, and learn something from it. We've no idea if the alien was able to understand Picard's story but he seems to.
So the problem in this story isn't so much that the UT isn't working -it is- but that what the aliens are saying, even translated, just doesn't make any sense. Now that they know how the language "works" they have to program their translator to see what the words mean, cross reference the words, put two and two together, and research mythology and then maybe it can produce a useful translation.
First of all, it's likely they've a much more advanced, or even telepathic, way of communicating in order to learn and develop. They only talk to "lesser species" who aren't capable of the more advanced way of talking. Sort of similar to how when The Traveler is asked what his name is he says, "Yeah, you won't be able to pronounce it so just call me something random."
As for the metaphor thing, I think of it thiss way. When the alien says "Darmok and Jihad and Tinagra" (or whatever it was) that's not what he's "really saying." He's saying something in some bizzare alien language. The universal translator is working! It's just that the translation itself doesn't make sense because the crew doesn't know the stories behind the metaphors.
The aliens have a "Darmok and Jihad at Tinagara" like story that likely contains the names in thier own mythology not to mention the preopositions, conjuctions and such-what. The translator "somehow" takes "Quqyuii ze Uhaguo gof Llwo'tu" and makes it "Darmok and Jihad at Tinagra."
How it does this is anyone's guess, it doesn't make any sense it can instantly translate an alien language that was just discovered either, so we just roll with it because it "has to" exsist for the show to work.
In the scene with the dying alien captain and Picard we do see a bit more "complexity" to the alien language when it is able to tell the story to Picard and Picard is able to understand the story, interpret it, and learn something from it. We've no idea if the alien was able to understand Picard's story but he seems to.
So the problem in this story isn't so much that the UT isn't working -it is- but that what the aliens are saying, even translated, just doesn't make any sense. Now that they know how the language "works" they have to program their translator to see what the words mean, cross reference the words, put two and two together, and research mythology and then maybe it can produce a useful translation.
I also think there were some clues in the show to explain the seeming discrepencies in the logic of the language. They clearly had a written language of some sort that was not legible to Picard- when he looked at Dathon's log, it was a bunch of lines and squiggles.
It seemed as though, and I may be wrong, that this written form did allow some more leeway for their language, since the Tamarian first officer could look at it and discern not only Picard's actual name which he could not use to identify him, but also the entire story, which at the end, the story of "Picard and Dathon at El-Adrel" now entered their...archives?
Plus, you can tell the Tamarians are a very ritualistic people. I always imagined that maybe there is a real language used to tell the stories, which is used to teach their children at a very young age. Then when they learn all the stories it is only socially acceptable to speak in metaphors, as they place so much emphasis on ritual and tradition and history. Eventually, after a lifetime of speaking only in metaphor, it becomes totally natural, and directly conveys their meaning.
Maybe?
It seemed as though, and I may be wrong, that this written form did allow some more leeway for their language, since the Tamarian first officer could look at it and discern not only Picard's actual name which he could not use to identify him, but also the entire story, which at the end, the story of "Picard and Dathon at El-Adrel" now entered their...archives?
Plus, you can tell the Tamarians are a very ritualistic people. I always imagined that maybe there is a real language used to tell the stories, which is used to teach their children at a very young age. Then when they learn all the stories it is only socially acceptable to speak in metaphors, as they place so much emphasis on ritual and tradition and history. Eventually, after a lifetime of speaking only in metaphor, it becomes totally natural, and directly conveys their meaning.
Maybe?
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