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dailymail reports that Jack the Ripper's identity has been uncovered.

Re: dailymail reports that Jack the Ripper's identity has been uncover

I see no reason to stomp on this new claim of scientific proof right now. It should be welcomed and looked into. It might very well be the final answer.

Calling for the findings and methodology to be published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal is wanting to "look into" it. And while no one is "stomping on this," there are a host of reasons to remain skeptical about the claims being made at this time, as detailed in the articles and responses above.
 
Re: dailymail reports that Jack the Ripper's identity has been uncover

I see no reason to stomp on this new claim of scientific proof right now. It should be welcomed and looked into. It might very well be the final answer.

It would be easier to believe that if they'd published it in a science journal instead of a notoriously disreputable tabloid, and if the author of the article didn't have a book about Jack the Ripper coming out tomorrow.

Skepticism is the foundation of science. When reputable scientists arrive at a conclusion, they submit it for peer review -- they ask their colleagues to test it independently and try to determine if they've made any mistakes. Basically they're asking "Please try to prove us wrong," and if other scientists fail to find any sources of error, then it can be trusted. (We see this all the time in science, with things like the "faster-than-light neutrinos" measurement that turned out to be due to a timing error in the measurement equipment.) But that's not what these two are doing. Instead, they're saying "This is 100 percent confirmed to be the truth and we want you to believe us." That's the exact opposite of good science.
 
Re: dailymail reports that Jack the Ripper's identity has been uncover

DNA evidence degrades. Someone who read the original link want to tell me if they say what kind of DNA? If it's sweat, you can throw out this story entirely. I'd find that completely absurd.

They're allegedly epithelial cells from the urethra, extracted from semen traces.


They may just be validating old-timey xenophobia.
It did bug me that the article made a point of mentioning that the "confirmed" Ripper was "a Polish Jew." Is his religion in any way relevant to the story?

It's the Daily Mail. They were also the only national paper to point out in their headline that the madman who just went on a killing spree and beheaded two cats followed by an old lady, was a Muslim.
 
Re: dailymail reports that Jack the Ripper's identity has been uncover

It's the Daily Mail. They were also the only national paper to point out in their headline that the madman who just went on a killing spree and beheaded two cats followed by an old lady, was a Muslim.

True, most of the newspapers did not mention that the killer was from a Muslim background, albeit non practicing one.
 
Re: dailymail reports that Jack the Ripper's identity has been uncover

I'd be hugely sceptical about trusting the Daily Mail about the date on it's front page, let alone anything else.

However, it does tie in with (as far as I can recall) investigations that showed that the police effectively stopped looking when Kosminski was admitted to an asylum for the insane. I think it was stated in a handwritten note in the margin of a report by Abbeline, suggesting that they knew him to be the ripper but couldn't prove it.
 
Re: dailymail reports that Jack the Ripper's identity has been uncover

As I mentioned in another thread about this yesterday, it's worth keeping in mind that just 11 months ago, the headlines were saying that a modern forensic analysis had concluded that Jack the Ripper never really existed but was a construct of yellow journalists in the first place:

http://www.express.co.uk/news/weird...stery-solved-by-top-detective-after-125-years

There, too, the news headlines claimed that it was "solved," which should show how much you should trust such absolute claims in news headlines. I do find the conclusion of that 2013 investigation rather plausible, but clearly it wasn't the final word on the subject. And the whole thing shows how important it is to be wary of sensationalist journalism and to view every headline with a skeptical eye.

And once again, it amazes me how short a memory the public has. This was literally less than a year ago, but now everyone's reacting to the latest Jack the Ripper "solution" as if it were the first time in history that a solution had ever been proposed.
 
Re: dailymail reports that Jack the Ripper's identity has been uncover

A sign of modern times, Christopher. The public always had a bad memory but it seems to me that the faster the media get, the faster are their customers to forget. (In some cases that's propably a blessing :D)

But that's not what's happening in this thread. Some posters are stomping before the evidence has even been examined.
I agree, Zap. However, if you follow the story up in the internet there appears to be indeed quite a lack of proof and even a very serious lack of professionality. I don't doubt that the analysis was performed properly - there's not much you can do wrong when sequencing DNA, even such old one - but I do very much oppose the conclusions drawn from the analysis (as, I'm sure, the lab in question will do as well, assuming they are professionals and have their good name to defend).

Let me explain my reasons for being so sceptical (I might add that I have done some DNA analysis myself when at university, so that I am rather familiar with the process) :

Apparently this forensic examination is based on material taken from a bloody shawl.
However, that shawl belonged to one of the vicims and had her blood on it, not the murderer's. In addition, it had been kept for more than a century in some junk box and had been handled repeatedly by different persons until it was finally auctioned off and bought by the man who now started this investigation.
It seems reasonable to assume that there would be no usable DNA by the murderer, since he didn't get injured and therefore only a few skin cells from his hands might possibly be on the shawl (but it is generally assumed he always wore gloves) and skin cells don't keep long with such improper storage. Hence, very likely all the DNA traces found in the recent examination are from the victim and the persons who later handled the scarf (with bare hands).
In order to definitely assign these DNA-traces to a person, one would have to be in possession of either an original sample from that person or of a sample of an immediate relative, preferably the person's mother or grandmother (because mitochondrial DNA gets passed on by the female only and keeps better).
Since no tissue samples of the suspects exist nor any samples of their female predecessors (plus: quite a few families of suspects died out or are untraceable nowadays) it is comperatively safe to assume that only the younger DNA (from the new owner, the seller and perhaps the auctioneer) can be identified. The older traces from the victim and previous owners can't be assigned to a specific person.
This renders the DNA-analysis as such ok (some DNA was there and got properly sequenced), but the published conclusions aren't worth the paper they are written on and, I'm sure, were never made by the lab.
 
Re: dailymail reports that Jack the Ripper's identity has been uncover

A sign of modern times, Christopher. The public always had a bad memory but it seems to me that the faster the media get, the faster are their customers to forget. (In some cases that's propably a blessing :D)

Maybe, maybe not . In any case, I think we're overdue for the next iteration of the "OMG they finally invented transparent aluminum!!!" frenzy that comes along every few months whenever a report about the applications of alumina glass is published.


Let me explain my reasons for being so sceptical (I might add that I have done some DNA analysis myself when at university, so that I am rather familiar with the process) :

...
This renders the DNA-analysis as such ok (some DNA was there and got properly sequenced), but the published conclusions aren't worth the paper they are written on and, I'm sure, were never made by the lab.

Good analysis. I agree, it's ludicrous to assume that the DNA on the shawl could only come from the victim or the killer, given how many others have handled it over the decades.
 
Re: dailymail reports that Jack the Ripper's identity has been uncover

I see no reason to stomp on this new claim of scientific proof right now. It should be welcomed and looked into. It might very well be the final answer.

Well, I have conclusive proof that it wasn't this guy. I hope you're not going to stomp on my new claim of scientific proof right now.
 
Re: dailymail reports that Jack the Ripper's identity has been uncover

DNA evidence degrades. Someone who read the original link want to tell me if they say what kind of DNA? If it's sweat, you can throw out this story entirely. I'd find that completely absurd.
They're allegedly epithelial cells from the urethra, extracted from semen traces.

All the victims were poor street prostitutes, so this could easily be from another source than the killer. And as far as I know (I've read the Philip Sugden book, which assesses all available evidence) there is no evidence that the attacks involved any sex act.
 
Re: dailymail reports that Jack the Ripper's identity has been uncover

Are there still people who can't admit that Jack the Ripper is an immortal killer who could return at any time?!? :cardie:
 
Re: dailymail reports that Jack the Ripper's identity has been uncover

It did bug me that the article made a point of mentioning that the "confirmed" Ripper was "a Polish Jew." Is his religion in any way relevant to the story?

This is consistent with most reporting regarding anyone of the Jewish faith.

For example, when Polish WWII casualties are listed its usually not stated as 6 million, or roughly 23% of the population; or as 500,000 to 1 million military personnel and 5 to 5.5 million civilians. Its usually listed as 3 million Poles, and then a separate figure of 6 million Jews; a number that includes 3 million Polish citizens and 3 million citizens of other countries.
 
Re: dailymail reports that Jack the Ripper's identity has been uncover

Good point but maybe it is - no offense meant to any board members of the Jewish faith - because ever since 1945 they've been demanding so much attention. They just don't allow any of us others to consider the Holocaust simply an historical event like the 100-years-war or the age of slavery. It'll propably take another 70 years for them to accept that the past is past.
 
Re: dailymail reports that Jack the Ripper's identity has been uncover

^There's a reason for the words "Never forget." Racism is still very much alive throughout the world, and genocides have happened elsewhere. For that matter, slavery is still a very real and rampant practice throughout the world, despite being nominally outlawed everywhere. We should never dismiss slavery or genocide as "simply an historical event," because that lets us delude ourselves into thinking it can't happen again -- and that complacency is exactly what allows it to happen again.
 
Re: dailymail reports that Jack the Ripper's identity has been uncover

^Thank you saying that far more politely than the response I was formulating in my head.
 
Re: dailymail reports that Jack the Ripper's identity has been uncover

The Daily Mail?! Well, then it MUST be true!
 
Re: dailymail reports that Jack the Ripper's identity has been uncover

DNA evidence degrades. Someone who read the original link want to tell me if they say what kind of DNA?

I read the same article last week and found it interesting having read "The Crimes of Jack the Ripper, the Whitechapel Murders Re-examined" by Paul Roland earlier this year.

They used mitochondrial DNA which can be used in cases such as this and is passed down through the female line. In 2013 they used mitochondrial DNA to confirm a skeleton found beneath an English parking lot was indeed that of King Richard III. ( http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/03/world/europe/richard-iii-search-announcement/) In this case they used a direct descendent of Kosminski's sister. Kosminski was a chief suspect at the time although Roland dismisses him in his book. I would like to see if these results can be replicated. If they can be replicated then that puts Kosminski with one of the victims. A very interesting piece to a mystery more than century old.

Warmest Wishes,
Whoa Nellie
 
Re: dailymail reports that Jack the Ripper's identity has been uncover

I would like to see if these results can be replicated. If they can be replicated then that puts Kosminski with one of the victims.

No, it really doesn't, because the shawl has been handled by many people other than the killer and the victim. There's no way to narrow the DNA donors down to just those two.
 
Re: dailymail reports that Jack the Ripper's identity has been uncover

I would like to see if these results can be replicated. If they can be replicated then that puts Kosminski with one of the victims.

No, it really doesn't, because the shawl has been handled by many people other than the killer and the victim. There's no way to narrow the DNA donors down to just those two.

If these results are duplicated it means the blood DNA is a match for Catherine Eddowes' direct descendant and the seminal fluid DNA is a match for Aaron Kosminski's direct descendant. The DNA must be from those two families. Unless a direct family member has had contact with the shawl then the DNA is from Eddowes and Kosminski. This is how they were able to identify King Richard III through a direct descendant.

Whoa Nellie
 
Re: dailymail reports that Jack the Ripper's identity has been uncover

DNA evidence degrades. Someone who read the original link want to tell me if they say what kind of DNA?

I read the same article last week and found it interesting having read "The Crimes of Jack the Ripper, the Whitechapel Murders Re-examined" by Paul Roland earlier this year.

They used mitochondrial DNA which can be used in cases such as this and is passed down through the female line. In 2013 they used mitochondrial DNA to confirm a skeleton found beneath an English parking lot was indeed that of King Richard III. ( http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/03/world/europe/richard-iii-search-announcement/) In this case they used a direct descendent of Kosminski's sister. Kosminski was a chief suspect at the time although Roland dismisses him in his book. I would like to see if these results can be replicated. If they can be replicated then that puts Kosminski with one of the victims. A very interesting piece to a mystery more than century old.

Warmest Wishes,
Whoa Nellie

Just to clarify, mitochondrial DNA from bones (usually teeth) holds up pretty well. It's the "wet DNA" such as blood and semen that degrades.

No, it really doesn't, because the shawl has been handled by many people other than the killer and the victim. There's no way to narrow the DNA donors down to just those two.

Kosminski doesn't have any other reason to come into contact with that shawl (particularly if it's his semen). May not be enough to convict him, but it's certainly enough for historical purposes.
 
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