Custom Excelsior Dreadnaught

[JJohnson]

I found an Excelsior class schematic like Vance's and thought I'd create a Federation-Class Dreadnaught style version. Saucer nacelle, thickened saucer, through-shuttlebay, and four forward torpedo tubes. I think at this point though, it might be better to begin doing a Galaxy-Dreadnaught style with the third nacelle on the engineering hull with an extended neck and back section. What do y'all think?

 

[publiusr]

I like modifications to the fantail.

I can draw squat—but one idea you might try is a landing ship.

While attached—it makes the standard Excelsior’s secondary hull side view look like Oberth’s…a smooth curve that terminates just behind the secondary hull’s aft tip.

Think a detachable lifting body like this:

Northrop M2-F3 - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

That parks underneath that Excelsior cut-out. It lowers top speed so it will be no faster than TMP refit era ships—but you want that anyway for Operation Retrieve.

But near the ground, the lifting body rolls—and lands flat side down. Normally that contacts the lower part of the Excelsior secondary hull.

While on the ground—it looks like a big shuttle with Marines and mechs spilling out.

Section 31’s little secret.

 

[fireproof78]

I found an Excelsior class schematic like Vance's and thought I'd create a Federation-Class Dreadnaught style version. Saucer nacelle, thickened saucer, through-shuttlebay, and four forward torpedo tubes. I think at this point though, it might be better to begin doing a Galaxy-Dreadnaught style with the third nacelle on the engineering hull with an extended neck and back section. What do y'all think?

The secondary hull looks great as an elongated body and a good balance to the top Nacelle.

 

[FormerLurker]

I have to say I'm getting tired of the idea that a dreadnought MUST HAVE a third nacelle. I'd rather see a ship that, like Admiral Marcus's ship in Into Darkness, is just massive in comparison to other ships intended to be the same class. The third nacelle doesn't make it look powerful, to me. It makes it look ungainly.

 

[publiusr]

I have to say I'm getting tired of the idea that a dreadnought MUST HAVE a third nacelle. I'd rather see a ship that, like Admiral Marcus's ship in Into Darkness, is just massive in comparison to other ships.

Agreed—it lets the saucer get away, though? Visually—I like two nacelles best.

The first dreadnought was from TAS, a huge inflatable…but based on something yet to come?

 

[FormerLurker]

The first dreadnought I remember was in Franz Joseph's Technical Manual.

 

[TIN_MAN]

I like it, good work!
Visually, it seems to be a well-balanced design conforming to "the rule of thirds".

 

[137th Gebirg]

The first dreadnought I remember was in Franz Joseph's Technical Manual.

Which was accidentally canonized in PIC S3 E1, and then subsequently decanonized in a litigious panic by the showrunners.

It was an amusing and frenetic dance when it happened.

 

[B.J.]

Which was accidentally canonized in PIC S3 E1, and then subsequently decanonized in a litigious panic by the showrunners.

It was an amusing and frenetic dance when it happened.

What, the models? What happened about that?

(Actually, I missed noticing them before. Had to go find what you were talking about! )

 

[137th Gebirg]

In a scene between Picard and Riker of S3E1 (I think maybe it was the Earth-based version of 10-forward - can't remember), there were some displays of model ships "for sale" - mostly Enterprise D's (referred to as the "Fat One" ) that appeared to be Eaglemoss models. They have appeared in various productions over the years. Buried amongst them were a couple FJ Federation class Dreadnaughts:

This was a big no-no, as the Joseph estate vigorously protects the artistic rights to his work, which shouldn't be used without their permission (ironic considering Paramount's aggressive protection of their own IP). They ran afoul of this when S1 of DSC used a similar version of FJ's UFP logo, to my recollection (DSC on left, FJ on right, but without laurels):

I suspect some set dresser put these things together and threw them in there as an Easter Egg, much like the occasional appearances of a tribble here and there. Unfortunately, there are legal ramifications to this and the show runners came up with some BS rationale, claiming it was not, in fact, a FJ Dreadnaught, but some other unnamed class that happens to look exactly like it!

Ahh... the apoplexy over that little incident was entertaining to say the least.

 

[137th Gebirg]

Here's a clearer photo of all the ships on display from Matalas' X post:

There are at least 3 not-Federations there.

 

[Colonel Midnight]

I have to say I'm getting tired of the idea that a dreadnought MUST HAVE a third nacelle. I'd rather see a ship that, like Admiral Marcus's ship in Into Darkness, is just massive in comparison to other ships intended to be the same class. The third nacelle doesn't make it look powerful, to me. It makes it look ungainly.

Agreed - To me, the third nacelle always seems like an afterthought or a big zit that pops up at the last moment, design wise.

Kind of like that Far Side cartoon where the guy has a tree sprouting out of his head who exclaims, ‘Always just before a big date!’

Cheers,
-CM-

 

[137th Gebirg]

I get the impression that the third nacelle (back then) implied that the ship could generate that much more power, back during a time (in TOS) when it was implied that the nacelles seemed to be more engines of power production, rather than devices of power consumption, as they seemed to later become in TMP and beyond. "More engines = more power".

In TNG and later years, the scenario simply evolved into "more engines = a more deeply-developed warp bubble = faster relative interstellar speeds". TNG, DS9, VOY and all subsequent films and series (except ENT) showed many vessels with more than 2 engines, and sometimes with an odd number. Power generation, at that point, lay solely within the purview of the M/AM intermix process.

 

[blssdwlf]

I get the impression that the third nacelle (back then) implied that the ship could generate that much more power, back during a time (in TOS) when it was implied that the nacelles seemed to be more engines of power production, rather than devices of power consumption, as they seemed to later become in TMP and beyond. "More engines = more power".

In TNG and later years, the scenario simply evolved into "more engines = a more deeply-developed warp bubble = faster relative interstellar speeds". TNG, DS9, VOY and all subsequent films and series (except ENT) showed many vessels with more than 2 engines, and sometimes with an odd number. Power generation, at that point, lay solely within the purview of the M/AM intermix process.

Right, in TOS some of the drawings label the nacelles as "power pods" and so the more pods the more powerful, as the idea goes.

I do have a question that I hope doesn't derail the thread too much - how is the Joseph estate able to claim the dreadnaught as their own IP when it is derived from Star Trek which is Paramount's? Does that mean any fan created ship is not Paramount's IP?

 

[137th Gebirg]

IIRC, when FJ was contracted to do the work for the Tech Manual and Connie blues, he somehow (smartly) got a rights retention clause that allowed him to own them. This didn’t sit well with Roddenberry which induced him to decanonize FJ’s work (because he didn’t get royalties). It also allegedly led to Roddenberry’s Rules of Starship Design, a series of rules (with dubious and even capricious intent, IMO) suspiciously seemed tailor-made to discredit all of the designs that FJ came up with. Andrew Probert later claimed to have been partially responsible for some of them, maybe to run interference for his then-boss. Who can tell anymore, after all these years anyway?

Glen Larson did a similar thing with being able to retain feature film rights of Battlestar Galactica, while Universal kept the series rights. Larson’s estate finally settled and sold the rights to Universal upon his death. FJ’s estate did not.

I may be misremembering parts of the FJ situation, but I think that was the big picture of it. Others more knowledgeable may have some additional information.