Curious about Janeway/Chakotay...
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Has somebody read this?
The whole interview
http://www.trektoday.com/content/2010/09/sussman-talks-voyager-and-enterprise/
The whole interview
http://www.trektoday.com/content/2010/09/sussman-talks-voyager-and-enterprise/
Has somebody read this?
The whole interview
http://www.trektoday.com/content/2010/09/sussman-talks-voyager-and-enterprise/
Are you serious? Grrrrr . . . That's one of the only Enterprise episodes I like . . . . I think I'm gonna cry. Nah. I will if I watch that episode though.
T'Pol needed him every Seven years. Medically. 50 first dates aside, Chuckles hooking up with Janeway impeded by reasserting retrograde amnseia is a little rapey even if he has an hour and a half to convince her that they love each other until they spend 20 minutes kissing and then shes freaking because she doesn't know why some terrorist scum is manhandling her.
I know it's a double standard, but it's way easier for a (beautiful?) woman to convince a guy that he should take his clothes off for no reason than it is for even a beautiful man to convince a woman to act in the same carefree fashion... Besides it took him months in Resolutions to figure out that he didn't have a lick of traction in the romance department with Kathy... What the frakk is he going to be able to accomplish in an hour and half?
What was the turnaround on Archers memory?
I know it's a double standard, but it's way easier for a (beautiful?) woman to convince a guy that he should take his clothes off for no reason than it is for even a beautiful man to convince a woman to act in the same carefree fashion... Besides it took him months in Resolutions to figure out that he didn't have a lick of traction in the romance department with Kathy... What the frakk is he going to be able to accomplish in an hour and half?
What was the turnaround on Archers memory?
I didn't see the ENT episode (didn't make it through season 1), but I regret that TPTB didn't let this be a VOY episode. It does show, however, that they were conscious of the J/C moments and electricity that so many fans loved. This episode is as much of a loss to us as the "Workforce" one that was supposed to be J/C. sigh
Oh, they knew all right! I refer you to the "kissing scene" in Muse, followed by the scene with the "real" J/C. I think the writers were finding teasing us funny by that point.
I've always seen the chemistry between J/C, I guess. I know some don't. I suppose it's like any other 'ship - when you see it, it's really hard to un-see it. And it felt to me like they really were writing in tidbits here and there just to keep the viewers on their toes about the whole thing.
I mean... the first half/last scene of Coda. That honestly drove it home for me more than Resolutions ever did (although I cannot stand the dresses they gave Janeway in that episode, so I've never been able watch it fully engaged, lol
I'm always like KATHRYN WHERE ARE YOU BUYING THOSE THINGS and then I miss all the romance - Angry Warrior/Bathtub scenes aside.)I could see something between Janeway and Chakotay at the beginning. But I agree, he got rejected too many times. How about Janeway and Torres. They seemed a much better pair to me than Janeway/7 (that was way mentor/mentee or mom/daughter to me... ewww). But J/T before Paris and Torres hooked up? Whenever there was a Janeway/Torres episode, I loved the character interaction. Never seemed popular on the fanfics... any idea why?
I am totally new to this forum (any fan forum, actually) but I have been lurking in the shadows for a week or so. I guess the time is right to finally come out as a total J/C shipper. I have no idea what has gotten into me, the closest I ever came to caring for a fictional couple were Alicia Florrick and Will Gardner in the Good Wife.
I started rewatching Voyager with my pre-teen geek son because the series on occasion presents good opportunities to discuss moral, political or religious topics in a way that does not make him roll his eyes. I had watched it before, many years ago and have no memory of ever having a strong opinion - any opinion really - about J/C.
Re-Watching it now in sequence I missed Resolutions, I was on a business trip and hubby and son decided that a lovey-dovy episode was not worth their while - but I saw Future's End after coming home. Watching Janeway and Chakotay stroll around LA, always touching, he often slightly behind her in a way that his shoulder must be touching hers - and then thinking about the last time I walked around anywhere like that with my boss and coming up empty handed - I was hooked. This was totally obvious to me from then, the chemistry is subtle but no less real. I thought any minute now they are going to take a quick turn into a dark side alley ...
Resolutions has its issues, we all know, stupid monkey and all, but man, the bathtub and his glances. I am normally no romantic but the Angry Warrior story gave me goosebumps. It helps, of course, that Chakotay has the most disarming smile between here and the DQ.
We are halfway through season 5 now and am painfully aware that there is no J/C happy ending. I am reading fanfic now. Another first!
I started rewatching Voyager with my pre-teen geek son because the series on occasion presents good opportunities to discuss moral, political or religious topics in a way that does not make him roll his eyes. I had watched it before, many years ago and have no memory of ever having a strong opinion - any opinion really - about J/C.
Re-Watching it now in sequence I missed Resolutions, I was on a business trip and hubby and son decided that a lovey-dovy episode was not worth their while - but I saw Future's End after coming home. Watching Janeway and Chakotay stroll around LA, always touching, he often slightly behind her in a way that his shoulder must be touching hers - and then thinking about the last time I walked around anywhere like that with my boss and coming up empty handed - I was hooked. This was totally obvious to me from then, the chemistry is subtle but no less real. I thought any minute now they are going to take a quick turn into a dark side alley ...
Resolutions has its issues, we all know, stupid monkey and all, but man, the bathtub and his glances. I am normally no romantic but the Angry Warrior story gave me goosebumps. It helps, of course, that Chakotay has the most disarming smile between here and the DQ.
We are halfway through season 5 now and am painfully aware that there is no J/C happy ending. I am reading fanfic now. Another first!
Well there was another pretty active J/C thread here in the Voyager section for some time awhile ago, heh. And are you on Facebook; there are several still active J/C and/ or Janeway/ Chakotay groups operating there - if you'd be interested. Also, don't know if you've heard about the "Voyager Relaunch" (after "Endgame") novels - you might find them pretty interesting.
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Well, it is clear that Chakotay fell in love with Janeway quickly enough and so quickly, he tried to flirt with her. At the beginning, he made advances in a discreet way then seeing that she didn't put him back in place, he kept going in a more and more insistent way. The paroxisme was of course in Resolutions (seriously, his attitude in this episode made me really cringe like he wanted to force her - in a charming way, I admit - to stay on this planet and begin a new life together even though he saw her struggling to bring them on Voyager to pursue their day).
As for Janeway, I think the problem is that her attitude was ambivalent from S1 to S7.
- S1 to S3 : although she was already committed to Mark for several years, she wasn't less sensitive to the attitude of her 1st Officer, maybe because she was flattered by his particular attention. Result: she flirted in return but refused to take the plunge in beginning a committent with Chakotay (besides, she recognized that she used her captain's role to avoid any romance with one of her offciers like an excuse).
- S3 to the beginning of S7: After the Mary Jane's letter and even though the way was opened to make J/C a couple, there was an (other) excuse: this time, the non- fraternization policy became suddenly a reality. Nevertheless, she continued to flirt with him by inviting her 1st Officer in dinners en-tête-à-tête in her quaters or by confiding him on very private affairs in a repetitive way. Seriously, Tuvok that she knows since her debuts as captain and that she considers as her old friend, has never had to benefit from this type of special treatment!
And in spite of every these gesture of attention, Janeway continues to refuse herself to Chakotay.
Hey, although I'm very happy this romance (without any kiss released... even if one was shot according to some people) remained unfinished, I understand that Chakotay is left seeing somewhere else (even if It would have been preferable whether it isn't Seven!
).
-> In the worst - and to satisfy the loyal fans of J/C, it would have been acceptable to see both characters giving in to their drives and making a romantic commitment the time of an entire season then to see Janeway or Chakotay recovering their mind (= breaking) and to try to re-built their former friendship.
For my part, I already said that there was much more of chemistry between Janeway / Krashyk in 45 min AND between Janeway / Jaffen in 2x45 min than Janeway / Chakotay in 7 years. Sorry not to be sorry!
(the reason: not only, I see no chemistry between these two characters but look at how they were during their journey. Both are leaders although their approach of leadership is different: Janeway is straight even though Chakotay is more diplomatic. But both are independent and stubborn when they think to be right (ok, Chakotay compromised but to a certain extent!)
IF they had become a couple, 1) Janeway wouldn't have been able to keep Chakotay as 1st to offcer and would have surely replaced him by Tuvok -> Starfleet:2-Maquis 0 2) I don't see Chakotay not try to press Janeway. Even if on a personal plan, she would make sompromises, she wouldn't let her relationship with Chakotay interfere in her captain's role of Voyager and she would be supported in it by Tuvok (and the whole Strafleet's others members. Can you imagine Chakotay, the dominating male that he always has been, freed from his obligations of 1st Officer, agrees to stay behind?! Not me.
At least, THANK YOU to Kate Mulgrew not to have given in to the pressure.
Hey, can you imagine what would have given a romance between Nicole Janeway (played by Geneviève Bujold) and Chakotay? I believe that the question wouldn't even have arisen!
As for Janeway, I think the problem is that her attitude was ambivalent from S1 to S7.
- S1 to S3 : although she was already committed to Mark for several years, she wasn't less sensitive to the attitude of her 1st Officer, maybe because she was flattered by his particular attention. Result: she flirted in return but refused to take the plunge in beginning a committent with Chakotay (besides, she recognized that she used her captain's role to avoid any romance with one of her offciers like an excuse).
- S3 to the beginning of S7: After the Mary Jane's letter and even though the way was opened to make J/C a couple, there was an (other) excuse: this time, the non- fraternization policy became suddenly a reality. Nevertheless, she continued to flirt with him by inviting her 1st Officer in dinners en-tête-à-tête in her quaters or by confiding him on very private affairs in a repetitive way. Seriously, Tuvok that she knows since her debuts as captain and that she considers as her old friend, has never had to benefit from this type of special treatment!
And in spite of every these gesture of attention, Janeway continues to refuse herself to Chakotay.Hey, although I'm very happy this romance (without any kiss released... even if one was shot according to some people) remained unfinished, I understand that Chakotay is left seeing somewhere else (even if It would have been preferable whether it isn't Seven!
).-> In the worst - and to satisfy the loyal fans of J/C, it would have been acceptable to see both characters giving in to their drives and making a romantic commitment the time of an entire season then to see Janeway or Chakotay recovering their mind (= breaking) and to try to re-built their former friendship.
For my part, I already said that there was much more of chemistry between Janeway / Krashyk in 45 min AND between Janeway / Jaffen in 2x45 min than Janeway / Chakotay in 7 years. Sorry not to be sorry!
(the reason: not only, I see no chemistry between these two characters but look at how they were during their journey. Both are leaders although their approach of leadership is different: Janeway is straight even though Chakotay is more diplomatic. But both are independent and stubborn when they think to be right (ok, Chakotay compromised but to a certain extent!)
IF they had become a couple, 1) Janeway wouldn't have been able to keep Chakotay as 1st to offcer and would have surely replaced him by Tuvok -> Starfleet:2-Maquis 0 2) I don't see Chakotay not try to press Janeway. Even if on a personal plan, she would make sompromises, she wouldn't let her relationship with Chakotay interfere in her captain's role of Voyager and she would be supported in it by Tuvok (and the whole Strafleet's others members. Can you imagine Chakotay, the dominating male that he always has been, freed from his obligations of 1st Officer, agrees to stay behind?! Not me.
At least, THANK YOU to Kate Mulgrew not to have given in to the pressure.
Hey, can you imagine what would have given a romance between Nicole Janeway (played by Geneviève Bujold) and Chakotay? I believe that the question wouldn't even have arisen!
oh, I beg to differ in so many ways. Funny how people can see the same thing, yet reach completely different conclusions/have completely different observations.
I think we need to differentiate between the intentions of the writers/producers/actors of the show and the emotions of the characters if we take them at face value as if they were real people.
The producers and later also Kate Mulgrew did not want that relationship because they thought it would turn Janeway into a romantic fool/weaker woman. Now, with the hindsight of 20 years I think she would have been the stronger woman, better leader, better role model if she could have done both. It is terribly cliche to expect a woman to give up a fulfilling personal live for her career/job. Chakotay was actually the perfect man for her to make that point. I believe the actual role model in the whole show for a more modern understanding of gender roles is Chakotay, not Janeway. But that little pet theory of mine is probably best discussed somewhere else.
Why Kate Mulgrew, who early on publicly gushed about Chakotay/Robert Beltran in no uncertain terms, and lobbied for a deep and meaningful relationship, later changed her tune I can only guess. Suffice it to say, I do have a little pet theory about that as well.
So, if the producers/writers/actors wanted to not weaken Janeway as a woman by giving her a man, I think they made the wrong decisions. This is exactly what made her weaker and less credible.
If we take the characters at face value the story becomes one about unnecessary sacrifice. For me it is clear, that the two of them were smitten with each other from day one. Love/lust on first site, so cliche, but it does happen. First there was Mark, which kept her from doing what she wanted and then later Starfleet regulations. I think she was afraid to get involved, understandable as that may be given her power over life and death ("Do I sent Chakotay or Neelix/insert any other name to that demon class planet. Hmm, let me think about that? Well, I guess today it's Neelix's turn.") she was already involved. She already couldn't make impartial decisions anymore, whether she slept with him or fantasized about sleeping with him. I am sure she tried her hardest, probably even overcompensated, but just not acting on emotions doesn't mean they do not influence behavior.
Jaffen I can't comment on, still need to rewatch that epi, but Counterpoint I saw last night. Kashyk is something to behold and there was attraction, no doubt. But I saw more desperation, pent up desires finding a quick outlet. A little affair with the handsome, strong alien - I can totally see that but would she have ever looked at the guy, kissed him and thought about more if she had Chakotay to spend her night with. Not a chance in my book, this guy was trouble and she knew it. The attraction was that he was dangerous and right there to play the game. Without 5 years of pent up desire she wouldn't have given that mass murderer a second look.
Tuvok - I love Tuvok but honestly I can't imagine ever going to him with a personal problem. "Captain, I have to remark that your behavior is quite irrational, I suggest you try meditation." Maybe she should have - maybe I should.
Nicole and Chakotay - hell, no way. I never saw them in a scene together but I am sure they would have had zero chemistry. The Janeway/Chakotay thing would have worked because Mulgrew and Beltran had that chemistry. It was beautiful and the producers should have run with it.
I think we need to differentiate between the intentions of the writers/producers/actors of the show and the emotions of the characters if we take them at face value as if they were real people.
The producers and later also Kate Mulgrew did not want that relationship because they thought it would turn Janeway into a romantic fool/weaker woman. Now, with the hindsight of 20 years I think she would have been the stronger woman, better leader, better role model if she could have done both. It is terribly cliche to expect a woman to give up a fulfilling personal live for her career/job. Chakotay was actually the perfect man for her to make that point. I believe the actual role model in the whole show for a more modern understanding of gender roles is Chakotay, not Janeway. But that little pet theory of mine is probably best discussed somewhere else.
Why Kate Mulgrew, who early on publicly gushed about Chakotay/Robert Beltran in no uncertain terms, and lobbied for a deep and meaningful relationship, later changed her tune I can only guess. Suffice it to say, I do have a little pet theory about that as well.
So, if the producers/writers/actors wanted to not weaken Janeway as a woman by giving her a man, I think they made the wrong decisions. This is exactly what made her weaker and less credible.
If we take the characters at face value the story becomes one about unnecessary sacrifice. For me it is clear, that the two of them were smitten with each other from day one. Love/lust on first site, so cliche, but it does happen. First there was Mark, which kept her from doing what she wanted and then later Starfleet regulations. I think she was afraid to get involved, understandable as that may be given her power over life and death ("Do I sent Chakotay or Neelix/insert any other name to that demon class planet. Hmm, let me think about that? Well, I guess today it's Neelix's turn.") she was already involved. She already couldn't make impartial decisions anymore, whether she slept with him or fantasized about sleeping with him. I am sure she tried her hardest, probably even overcompensated, but just not acting on emotions doesn't mean they do not influence behavior.
Jaffen I can't comment on, still need to rewatch that epi, but Counterpoint I saw last night. Kashyk is something to behold and there was attraction, no doubt. But I saw more desperation, pent up desires finding a quick outlet. A little affair with the handsome, strong alien - I can totally see that but would she have ever looked at the guy, kissed him and thought about more if she had Chakotay to spend her night with. Not a chance in my book, this guy was trouble and she knew it. The attraction was that he was dangerous and right there to play the game. Without 5 years of pent up desire she wouldn't have given that mass murderer a second look.
Tuvok - I love Tuvok but honestly I can't imagine ever going to him with a personal problem. "Captain, I have to remark that your behavior is quite irrational, I suggest you try meditation." Maybe she should have - maybe I should.
Nicole and Chakotay - hell, no way. I never saw them in a scene together but I am sure they would have had zero chemistry. The Janeway/Chakotay thing would have worked because Mulgrew and Beltran had that chemistry. It was beautiful and the producers should have run with it.
The Janeway/Chakotay shippers never made much sense to me. From early on I figured out that Chakotay was yet another example of "50 Shades of Janeway" much like Harry Kim. Chakotay was her property. "Nobody touches what's Janeway's! Even if she's never gonna use it herself! " I mean Janeway basically bought off Chakotay's loyalty with hot air and empty promises. Heck in spite of the title he's not even really her first officer. If you watch the dynamic carefully you realize that Janeway filters all real orders and ship stuff through Tuvak. Chakotay is just there to balance out Harry in carrying her sedan chair.
Wow, Griffeytrek, you sure don't have a good opinion of our heroine, here. I know she ain't a saint but she isn't a total b*tch either. I'll watch more carefully with regards of command decisions, so far I have mainly looked for longing glances. Guess I am a romantic after all 
Wow, Griffeytrek, you sure don't have a good opinion of our heroine, here. I know she ain't a saint but she isn't a total b*tch either. I'll watch more carefully with regards of command decisions, so far I have mainly looked for longing glances. Guess I am a romantic after all
Kate Mulgrew herself has said that Janeway was so schizophrenically badly written that she finally just assumed that Janeway was in fact suffering a breakdown from the stress of the journey, and started playing her as such.
Well, she has her moments, I admit. There are a lot of inconsistencies in the writing and if this was all real than I am sure the stress of the journey would have been pretty much unbearable for anybody. I can imagine the mixture of guilt for stranding them there, the determination to get them home, the desperation of many of the situations, the hopelessness, and the losses, the occasional high hopes for a miraculous return that are always dashed at the last moment just being overwhelming after so many years.
Add Starfleet protocol to that that seems to prohibit any semblance of a normal life and things get ever so much more difficult.
Well, I know what I would have done in her place, in a quite moment I would have sat down to do a serious edit of those Starfleet rules and regulations. I would have given them some nice title such as "Completely Revised, Updated and Binding Starfleet Regulations for Starfleet Vessels More than 30K Lightyears from the Alpha Quadrant" and then I would have invited Chakotay over for dinner and asked him to bring a bottle of champagne.
Add Starfleet protocol to that that seems to prohibit any semblance of a normal life and things get ever so much more difficult.
Well, I know what I would have done in her place, in a quite moment I would have sat down to do a serious edit of those Starfleet rules and regulations. I would have given them some nice title such as "Completely Revised, Updated and Binding Starfleet Regulations for Starfleet Vessels More than 30K Lightyears from the Alpha Quadrant" and then I would have invited Chakotay over for dinner and asked him to bring a bottle of champagne.
Really?
I honestly can not remember a single article or video where she espoused such a sentiment.
The actress often did talk about the stress of playing the character, especially with TPTB over thinking the distaff side of Voyager's command structure, but that's all that I can recall.
It's what makes all the charm of this site, isn't it?
It rather seems to me that the producers wanted to apply the same profile to Janeway as to the other captains. All those we know (Kirk, Sisko, Picard) were single (Kirk & Janeway), divorcee (Picard) or widower (Sisko) and even if during their journey, they had love affairs - sometimes serious -, they were completly devoted to their fonctions of capitain of Starfleet; to the point that the rest (love, amongst other things) seems insignificant. (Sisko was the exception because he was already married and father of a child at the beginning of the adventure DS9. But in the end, while he had finally found a new soul mate and was going to become a father again, his human existence cames to an end)
In the case of Janeway, her sole purpose since they are lost in Delta Quadrant (situation for which she feels - and is - partially responsible but for praiseworthy reasons), is to return her crew safe and sound on Earth. She had to think that all meetings with masculine mates which occured - or could have been occured -, were a useless entertainment after Mark's letter.
As many - even if it seems that we are more silent than Janeway / Chakotay shippers -, I am happy that she didn't give up to Chakotay's advances during the long journey of Voyager.
About Kashyk: before being physical, it seems to me that their attraction was intellectual. Both are brilliant/powerful and they understand without needing to exchange too much. Even if there had been a romance between them, and that this one had lasted a shot duration, it would have made sparks, like it happened in Counterpoint even though nothing happened.
About Jaffen: their relationship was sweet. Of all the men whom she has shared a form of romance/flirt, he was the only one who allowed her to be herself, someone cheerful and lighthearted. And especially, he would have been the shoulder on which she would have been able to rest after stressful day, the one who would have brought her an unconditional support.
I don't think that a capitain needs to make remind his/her mistakes, his/her weaknesses and be pressed to make adjustment, when he/she comes back in his/her quarters to rest. Yet, it is exactly what makes Chakotay all along during the journey, especially when he was persuaded to be right.
Hey, Tuvok Isn't only synonymic of meditation!
He is a wise and an empathetic man, even if he doesn't often show it (a Vulcan remains a Vulcan!).
He feels a profound respect for Janeway, as Human being and as Capitain.
He is the one who knows her strengths and her weaknesses better than whoever and therefore, it is easier to him to understand her and some of her decisions.
Even if he doesn't approve all her decisions, he will find find a way to let her know. And you know what, she will listen her old friend and there will be a very strong chance that she follows his advices.
Jennifer Lien/Robert McNeil, Roxan Dawson/Robert Beltran, and even Kate Mulgrew/Robert Picardo (look at their scenes togethe -> I could see them easily interpreting a couple in a series) had chemistry and nothing happened.
I know it's subjective but I saw absolutely NO chemistry between Dawson and Beltran. I thought their scenes together were so cringeworthy the very first time I watched it back when the episode first aired. I now fast forward through them. I am however willing to admit that others might see something there. That's why we have shipper wars. I was so thankful that went nowhere.
However I did think McNeil and Lien had a fair amount of chemistry but the whole idea just stalled.
I was so thankful that went nowhere.However I did think McNeil and Lien had a fair amount of chemistry but the whole idea just stalled.
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