Curious about Janeway/Chakotay...

[stardream]

Did Picard or Kirk 'need' a woman in their life full time? Sisko only had one because Jake and his friends conspired to put him and Kassidy together. I don't see the need for her to have a 'man' at all.

I felt the same way about Seven. She needed to grow up more and be her own woman for a while...no need for romance.

 

[Katinka]

Did Picard or Kirk 'need' a woman in their life full time?

Their situation was very different from Janeway's. I think the question of whether she needed a man is wrong, the question is more: did she need somebody to trust, to love, to care for and to love and care for her. Given the stress she was under for 7 years, given her role as the captain I'd say that answer is yes. Nobody can be alone as well as strong and selfless 24/7 for seven years straight. I wouldn't have minded at all if she had a relationship with B'Lanna or the Doctor or whoever but she needed a relationship or a more nuanced treatment about the stress she is under without one (not just stupid Holodeck romances and a near breakdown in The Void). Chakotay was the logical choice and I did see some real (screen) chemistry there between them.
I guess, in the end, it's all about what is important to the viewer. Many watch sci fi for the geeky techno stuff and that's fine, I watch it for that, too but I'd like to see realistic human behavior in addition. Multiphasic polarized neutrino torpedoes and such like are fun to a point but in a show that frequently makes the point that human emotions and gut-feelings in the end trump cool Vulcan logic I'd like to see some more of those human emotions, even if it gets messy. I trust the viewers can deal with some emotional messiness once in a while when they can put up with all those messes created by yet another fight with some nasty alien race.

 

[stardream]

I like character development and am not in it just for the space battles. It's not an either or thing but I agree with Mulgrew when it came to Janeway and relationships. Her goal to was to get the crew home and to her nothing else mattered. We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

Now I will say that it would be interesting to imagine what Janeway did during the original 23 year timeline that was short-circuited in Endgame. Did she stick with her determination to get the crew home and by default remain alone? Did another 'alien of the week' decide to join the crew and become her confident and perhaps romantic partner?

 

[Katinka]

I like character development and am not in it just for the space battles.

I wasn't picking on you, that was a general comment. I think it is valid to watch sci fi for the space battles, just as it is valid to watch James Bond for the car chases, while I watch it in the hopes that Daniel Craig takes his shirt off To each his own.
I am confused about Mulgrew's changing option on J/C , early on she seemed to have been in favor, even lobbing for a relationship between Janeway and Chakotay (together with Beltran) and later she made it sound like it was a completely stupid idea. (I do have sources somewhere ...)
I haven't rewatched Endgame yet so I am not sure but it seems that Admiral Janeway was rather bitter and unhappy, so those 23 years probably weren't filled with love and laughter ...

 

[stardream]

The original timeline had a tragedy and since you haven't seen it I won't go into detail but we aren't sure at what point in the journey that happened. The only 'peek' we get at it is one of Beyer's books, The Eternal Tide.

 

[Catarina]

"I know a dude that's a Mexican?"
"Close enough! Hire him! Just make sure he's tall, cheap, and looks good standing in a corner!"

They should have left him Latino. Native culture is so rich and diverse, you might even say complicated to really capture it by people in Hollywood, respectively.

 

[nerdyfangirl74656]

From what I've read and seen on YouTube clips of Mulgrew at conventions, she was concerned that Janeway would been seen as just a love interest for the male cast members. And TPTB were unsure that a female captain would be accepted by the (mainly male) fans in the first place. I saw a clip where Mulgrew said that Fair Haven was her punishment for putting her foot down about no hankypanky between Janeway and Chakotay.

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

Well, the character of Michael Sullivan could have become interesting if he had been developed during an arc of several episodes by becoming totally sentient as the Doctor (he would have navigated between the 24th century of Janeway and the end of the 19th of Fair Haven) OR even, in showing Janeway meeting by accident, a totally human Michael Sullivan. So, what she refused to live with a hologram who pops on and off in, she made it with a being made by flesh and by bone.
It's certainly the reason why her loving "adventure" with Sullivan was never taken seriously contrary to her adventure with Jaffen.
(I like Fair Haven & Michael Sullivan but well, it was above all a joke. Again, more development would have been welcome).

Seriously, when I see Janeway/Sullivan, I don't get those who are hooked with Seven, a human being at 100% becoming Borg, and the Doctor, who is a hologram at 100%, as a potential romantic couple.
I mean, I find the idea of a romantic relationship between people from different races, WONDERFUL but come on, how is it possible to get the same thing between a living being and a hologram, which by definition, is an image thrown in 3D, even if it is sentient (able to move easily from a space to another on). For me, Janeway/Sullivan = Seven/The Doctor.

Alright, I know that the ridiculous doesn't kill anymore but all the same, it's very odd and even disturbing! In the same time, it's Star Trek: Voyager which collects -maybe not all the possible and inconceivable- implausibilities but hey, the serie offered a lot to us, so... !

 

[Griffeytrek]

They should have left him Latino. Native culture is so rich and diverse, you might even say complicated to really capture it by people in Hollywood, respectively.

Yeah funny thing about that. Most American's are well aware of the broad tapestries of cultures and the nuances of such. We all have friends neighbors and relatives through marriage from a wide variety of places. With various Central and South American Latino cultures being among the ones we come in most frequent contact with.

But Hollywood executives and producers? It's like they remain permanently stuck in the stereotypes of the 50's and 60's. They live in a bubble, and arrogantly assume the rest of us do as well. That they must dumb content down to their level in order for us to understand it. This shows up in a lot of ways. Things like Hollywoods treatment of women and minorities in the industry. Which is far outside the norms of every other industry in North America. (Yet somehow we, the audience get blamed for this).

Perhaps the saddest thing is Chakotay and the entire Maqui storylines did not need the bizarre injection of "Native American Mysticism". It would have worked better, smoother and been more believable if they had simply gone with the Maqui being largely Agrarian Farmers, some of South and Central American descent, upset at the loss of their lands. (Heck wasn't the original Maqui a conflict surrounding the French Government and Spanish speaking farmers in the Southwest of France?) Instead we got the traditional Hollyweird approach of "when in doubt throw a stereotype at it, because them peoples love that stuff".

 

[stardream]

I wouldn't have minded if they had just created Chakotay as being part of a REAL tribe. Heck...if he were Diné, I doubt the Tsalagi would have complained...but then the Ndee might get offended... but maybe not.

 

[nerdyfangirl74656]

Well, the character of Michael Sullivan could have become interesting if he had been developed during an arc of several episodes by becoming totally sentient as the Doctor (he would have navigated between the 24th century of Janeway and the end of the 19th of Fair Haven) OR even, in showing Janeway meeting by accident, a totally human Michael Sullivan. So, what she refused to live with a hologram who pops on and off in, she made it with a being made by flesh and by bone.
It's certainly the reason why her loving "adventure" with Sullivan was never taken seriously contrary to her adventure with Jaffen.
(I like Fair Haven & Michael Sullivan but well, it was above all a joke. Again, more development would have been welcome).

Seriously, when I see Janeway/Sullivan, I don't get those who are hooked with Seven, a human being at 100% becoming Borg, and the Doctor, who is a hologram at 100%, as a potential romantic couple.
I mean, I find the idea of a romantic relationship between people from different races, WONDERFUL but come on, how is it possible to get the same thing between a living being and a hologram, which by definition, is an image thrown in 3D, even if it is sentient (able to move easily from a space to another on). For me, Janeway/Sullivan = Seven/The Doctor.

Alright, I know that the ridiculous doesn't kill anymore but all the same, it's very odd and even disturbing! In the same time, it's Star Trek: Voyager which collects -maybe not all the possible and inconceivable- implausibilities but hey, the serie offered a lot to us, so... !

As Janeway herself said "We're Starfleet officers; 'weird' is part of the job."
In regards to The Doctor and Seven, they are a more believable couple then Chakotay and Seven. You only have to watch episodes like Someone to Watch Over Me to see that the palpable chemistry between Jeri Ryan and Robert Picardo. But yeah, a human and a hologram is a bit unrealistic.

 

[2takesfrakes]

Did Picard or Kirk 'need' a woman in their life full time? Sisko only had one because Jake and his friends conspired to put him and Kassidy together. I don't see the need for her to have a 'man' at all.

I felt the same way about Seven. She needed to grow up more and be her own woman for a while...no need for romance.

I found Seven to be charming, in her own way, but she wasn't "all that," as far as I was concerned. I mean ... she was no Angelina Jolie.

So ... the question presents itself:
Did Picard "need" a full-time woman? Well ... Bev was ready - and willing. But Picard was "above" that sort of thing, if you like. His wild oats were sewn, for the most part. There were occasional trysts, here and there, to remind himself he's still a Man, but for the most part, he was content to simply command the Enterprise.

Did Kirk "need" a full-time woman? Again, there's a regular character who's ready and willing, in the form of Yeoman Rand, but James was already getting women hand-over-fist. He had a revolving door of women coming through, so if you blur them all together, it's actually like having a woman fulfilling his needs, full-time. I mean ... even non-Trekkies know of Kirk's reputation!

 

[nerdyfangirl74656]

I found Seven to be charming, in her own way, but she wasn't "all that," as far as I was concerned. I mean ... she was no Angelina Jolie.

So ... the question presents itself:
Did Picard "need" a full-time woman? Well ... Bev was ready - and willing. But Picard was "above" that sort of thing, if you like. His wild oats were sewn, for the most part. There were occasional trysts, here and there, to remind himself he's still a Man, but for the most part, he was content to simply command the Enterprise.

Did Kirk "need" a full-time woman? Again, there's a regular character who's ready and willing, in the form of Yeoman Rand, but James was already getting women hand-over-fist. He had a revolving door of women coming through, so if you blur them all together, it's actually like having a woman fulfilling his needs, full-time. I mean ... even non-Trekkies know of Kirk's reputation!

Got to remember too that Kirk was developed in the 1960s and the image of what a leading man should be like was a bit different then. Picard was 20 years later, and maybe developed to be the opposite of Kirk. More brain than brawn.
Picard and Beverly did get together in the end and they are together in the books too.
Janeway doesn't 'need' a man, but I'm a hopeless romantic and I want her to be happy with one. Preferably Chakotay

 

[TheSubCommander]

They should have left him Latino. Native culture is so rich and diverse, you might even say complicated to really capture it by people in Hollywood, respectively.

It would have been easier if they made him a specific tribe, not a Hollywood imaginary catch all tribe.

 

[Griffeytrek]

Got to remember too that Kirk was developed in the 1960s and the image of what a leading man should be like was a bit different then. Picard was 20 years later, and maybe developed to be the opposite of Kirk. More brain than brawn.
Picard and Beverly did get together in the end and they are together in the books too.
Janeway doesn't 'need' a man, but I'm a hopeless romantic and I want her to be happy with one. Preferably Chakotay

I remain grateful that we more or less skipped over the 70's leading man Captain. I just have these visions of a "porn'stached" Captain of the Enterprise wearing Bellbottoms like something out of Boogie Nights. (I'm allowed to say it. I lived through it. It wasn't pretty then and it hasn't in any way improved with age or distance. It was this vast deep loss of national taste largely unseen before or since.)

 

[Griffeytrek]

Did Picard or Kirk 'need' a woman in their life full time? Sisko only had one because Jake and his friends conspired to put him and Kassidy together. I don't see the need for her to have a 'man' at all.

I felt the same way about Seven. She needed to grow up more and be her own woman for a while...no need for romance.

I don't think we have ever seen a Starfleet Captain that is married while they are actively the Captain of a Starship. have we? The closest we have is Sisko for the brief bit. But we was really more of a Fleet Command Officer by then and mainly just borrowed the Defiant as needed.

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

As Janeway herself said "We're Starfleet officers; 'weird' is part of the job."
In regards to The Doctor and Seven, they are a more believable couple then Chakotay and Seven. You only have to watch episodes like Someone to Watch Over Me to see that the palpable chemistry between Jeri Ryan and Robert Picardo. But yeah, a human and a hologram is a bit unrealistic.

Chakotay/Seven is also improbable as Seven/The Doctor, there is no question about it but alas, it was the choice of the UPN/production/writers* (minus Braga who wanted that Seven sacrifices herself in the finale, as an ultimate act of humanism -> this end as sad and dramatic as it is, would have been more logical and then after, fans would have been free to invent their own purpose, what fanfictions authors do very well for our most great pleasure.
-> * as Mulgrew articipated in the elaboration of this end, she is also responsible for this farce.

As I stay on the idea that Janeway remains a single woman and pursues her brilliant career at Starfleet Command HQ, I see Chakotay meeting a woman who would be the spitting image of Janeway (we say well that we have all at least a double in the world, so...) and whom he could seduce and more if affinities... Well, a Janeway 2.0 to fill the void!
-> you know, that's what I call, the "effect Canada Dry" (it has the color and sparkling of champagne, but it is not some champagne).
So, everybody is satisfied!

 

[Nyotarules]

I never saw the chemistry between J/C, the C/7 threw me when that episode came out but I liked them together because it was so weird. In RL a lot of folks are with people that you would never pair them with... and it works lol

 

[Nyotarules]

Well, she has her moments, I admit. There are a lot of inconsistencies in the writing and if this was all real than I am sure the stress of the journey would have been pretty much unbearable for anybody. I can imagine the mixture of guilt for stranding them there, the determination to get them home, the desperation of many of the situations, the hopelessness, and the losses, the occasional high hopes for a miraculous return that are always dashed at the last moment just being overwhelming after so many years.
Add Starfleet protocol to that that seems to prohibit any semblance of a normal life and things get ever so much more difficult.

Well, I know what I would have done in her place, in a quite moment I would have sat down to do a serious edit of those Starfleet rules and regulations. I would have given them some nice title such as "Completely Revised, Updated and Binding Starfleet Regulations for Starfleet Vessels More than 30K Lightyears from the Alpha Quadrant" and then I would have invited Chakotay over for dinner and asked him to bring a bottle of champagne.

Her attitude to Starfleet regulations made no sense to me, in a real world situation the ship should be turned into a generational ship as per ST Ent episode E2, you're 70 years from home you need to start making replacement crew and the most enjoyable way to do that is rumpy pumpy with someone on the ship!

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

Her attitude to Starfleet regulations made no sense to me, in a real world situation the ship should be turned into a generational ship as per ST Ent episode E2, you're 70 years from home you need to start making replacement crew

Well, in a real world, you have some people who will NEVER divert rules of conduct that they settled, like the rigorous application of an internal rules, whatever the circumstances, OR for themselves, like the application of the policy of non fraternization between a chief and his/her subordinate even if they fall in love for each other. Plus, it would hold of the sexual harassment, even if both are willing. It would give a bad impression, right?!!

-> Maybe I'm wrong but Starfleet's regulations book is Janeway's Bible of perfect command officer (she knows it by heart - as most of the captains of the fleet)... even if sometimes, as we saw it during her journey of several decades, she adduces some "liberties" with regualtion when it arranges her. Same thing with Federation's Prime Directive! -> she recognized it shamelessly to Krashyk.

(BTW, I bet that Starfleet is quite a family tradition in Janeways!)

As to turn the Voyager into a generational ship, I think that she would have eventually made in the idea if she had had the certainty that their journey would be endless (remember her attitude in Resolutions, where she had eventually abandoned all hope of returning on the vessel with Chakotay AFTER the storm destroyed a great part of the equipment imported on the island) but well, as we say in French, "Tant qu'il y a de la vie, il y a de l'espoir!" (while there's life, there's hope) and I think that she is this kind of person who gives up as a very last resort). Plus, her crew was still numerous (around 150 souls), quite young, healthy & very motivated to go home. In a word, she had to consider that the time didn't press to take the plunge ....and the events agreed with her!

and the most enjoyable way to do that is rumpy pumpy with someone on the ship!

She would certainly have eventually given up to this idea ... but for the others (besides, remember that right in first episodes, she said to Chakotay that it was normal that people stuck on a vessel in the middle of nowhere, begin to flirt and fall in love BUT, as a captain, she had no this luxury (= to fall for her subordinates)

On the other hand, nothing would have been able to prevent her from starting a family with a man - or a woman - from the civil society (in fact, it almost was made with Jaffen) or even another command officer... as long as he/she isn't her subordinate - whatever is the rank (it isn't even on the board!). Ddidn't she openly flirt with Krashyk, not hesitating to repeat her offer to welcome him on Voyager in spite of his deceit?! If he had accepted to stay and made amends for his past behaviour, it is safe to bet that they would have eventually end by forming a romantic couple).
Anyway, in both cases (Jaffen, Krashyk), Janeway was opened to let speak her heart while continuing to assure her command.
Chakotay who, although named temporarily as 1st officer of USS Voyager (I remind that he had officially resigned from Starfleet to join the Maquis), had to report directly to her! Bad luck for him (and good for us, the non J/C fans! )!