Curious about Janeway/Chakotay...

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

I know it's subjective but I saw absolutely NO chemistry between Dawson and Beltran. I thought their scenes together were so cringeworthy the very first time I watched it back when the episode first aired. I now fast forward through them. I am however willing to admit that others might see something there. That's why we have shipper wars. I was so thankful that went nowhere.

However I did think McNeil and Lien had a fair amount of chemistry but the whole idea just stalled.

The problem with Dawson/Beltran, is that they are had a few scenes together in 7 years, what is very strange because their characters were supposed to know each other very well, as former members of the Maquis and we know that Torres - before falling in love with Paris - wasn't insensible in Chakotay's charm.
Not sure that he felt the same but even if he did, as soon as Janeway entered the picture, he had eyes only for her.
But in any event, the scenes included them, there was some sparks.

I specify that chemistry for me, means not only something on a sexual plan, it can also be purely an genuine professional harmony like Mulgrew/Picardo or Phillips, McNeil/Dawson, Russ/Mulgrew.

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

oops, and of course Mulgrew/Ryan and we know how much they disliked each other but on sets, their professionalism hid their disagreement very well.
And what to say about scenes between Dawson / Mulgrew. They are pretty good and emotional and I am not a fan of Torres!

 

[stardream]

there was some sparks.

If you say so.

 

[Katinka]

I saw absolutely NO chemistry between Dawson and Beltran.

Agreed, that pairing makes no sense to me. They were colleagues, maybe friends and Chakotay went to bat for her early on over the Chief Engineer position. I can see professional respect and shared history/adventures during the Marquis times, but romance ... nope.
Tom and Kes, yes, I like them better than Tom and B'Elana. Not that I dislike them but I never quite saw how this would work on a day to day life level (maybe there wasn't enough day to day routine in the DQ for them to find out)

 

[Mareika]

Agreed, that pairing makes no sense to me. They were colleagues, maybe friends and Chakotay went to bat for her early on over the Chief Engineer position. I can see professional respect and shared history/adventures during the Marquis times, but romance ... nope.

Oh, I like all of theTorres/Chakotay scenes. They are sweet together and I think there is a wonderful chemistry between those two. It`s clear, that Torres had a big crush on Chakotay (maybe she `s in love with him). At least in the early seasons.

 

[stardream]

I didn't mind them together as friends but I just couldn't see the two of them together as a romantic couple. It just didn't work in my own head if that makes any sense.

 

[Paradise City]

The acting ability of the Voyager cast was very mixed. I don't know if they could pull off a good coupling on that show. I did like how McNeil and Dawson deal with having a child mind you. Some good scenes there which surprised me as I wasn't exactly persuaded by that coupling either. Mulgrew and Beltran? Nah. I don't see it.

 

[Lance]

Seven/Janeway is definitely plausible. I doubt it was intentional but there were definitely moments where they had sexual chemistry on screen (ironically, given the actors hated each other.)

I do recall Janeway/Chakotay being a very real thing for maybe the first couple of seasons, and the show definitely played on it. I recall contemporaneous fan reviews on the internet making a big deal of the chemistry. I do think it may have been a mistake not to have made it a permanent thing. Right up until the end of the show, 'Chuckles' was the only character who regularly called her "Kathryn" rather than Sir or Captain, so they were always trying to punch at the chemistry that had been there at the start.

EDIT: And this post =

If you can't see it, and when you see it it makes you cringe, do you really think I can explain it to you?

I never thought of them as a potential couple until "Elogium", then again it took me that long to notice Robert Beltran had the cutest dimples in all of trekdom.

We see through season 1 and more so season 2 how alone Janeway is, and how she's thinking of releasing her stranglehold on the thought of Mark waiting patiently at home ("Tuvix").

Then that cringeful episode followed...

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I know that there have been heartfelt moments between Janeway and Seven, but the only time Janeway cried over Seven was when she thought Seven was dying. The only time IIRC Janeway ever cried in this series when someone's LIFE wasn't a stake was when she invited Chakotay to take her hand on "New Earth".

Janeway touches everyone, Janeway seduces everyone on this show, its one of her "command" traits, and yet when it comes to Chakotay he's the only one (after Kes leaves) that she routinely confides in, the only one who squires her about on his arm, the only one who routinely is invited into her inner sanctum alone for dinner and conversation. The only one she loaned her fiance's engagement gift to, while on Voyager.

These two know that "this way there be dragons", and so while on Voyager they try to be ever so professional, ever so platonic, but then something happens and suddenly an omnipotent being wants to mate with your "Captain" or a BORGlet collective is having foreplay with your Commander, and you realize it "bothers" you?

I think if Riker thought Q wanted to mate with Picard, he'd have just laughed, or if Miss Q wanted to do the same he would have just said, "Atta boy!"

Why be bothered...if there's nothing else going on between them?

Then suddenly your "almost lover" is torn from your side, and months later when you find the gift he tried unsuccessfully to give you for your birthday you don't recycle it like you had ordered him to do. Instead you wear it as a reminder, as a talisman, as a promise to do everything in your power to right this wrong perpetuated upon you and your crew and your "almost" love.

And when you return from another mission, and find not only your crew but your heart's desire kidnapped, you do everything within your power to bring them back... despite the pain / the consequences of seeing your obsession in the arms of another man, despite hearing the joy in her voice when she tells you they are moving in together. A man who's known her barely 3 weeks has traveled further into her life than you have in over 6 years, and now you are supposed to simply rip them apart?

Yes.

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You ask why we see J/C... because JANEWAY sees J/C.

From "Shattered"

JANEWAY: Mind if I ask you one last question?
CHAKOTAY: Will I have to break the Temporal Prime Directive to answer it?
JANEWAY: Maybe, just a little. For two people who started off as enemies it seems we get to know each other pretty well, so I've been wondering. Just how close do we get?
CHAKOTAY: Let's just say there are some barriers we never cross.
JANEWAY: See you in the future.

So many people see that ep as the door slamming on J/C, but I don't. I see it as the only way Janeway could tell Chakotay that she sees them as more than a power couple, after all the things he's told her about them. I see it as Kathryn giving her junior officer permission to break the fraternization rules... because the younger woman has ASSUMED her older self has already done so.

CHAKOTAY: We've been down this road before.
JANEWAY: Have we?
CHAKOTAY: You wanting answers to questions you shouldn't ask.
JANEWAY: But something did happen, outside the normal space-time continuum. It's strange thinking there's a piece of your life you don't know anything about.
CHAKOTAY: Sounds a lot like the future.
JANEWAY: Any predictions?
CHAKOTAY: Only that in a few minutes this bottle will be empty.

In university, my professor used to say, "I'll see it, WHEN I believe it."

Suffice to say, J/Cer's. J/7er's, J/T or BLT or P or K or N or EMHer's all say the same thing.

I see J/C because I believe in it.

 

[Ghel]

Sorry to say that I saw no chemistry between Beltran and anyone. For all his complaints about the writing on the show, his delivery of dialogue was always incredibly dull. There is a reason why Dwight Schultz and Colm Meaney were intended for bit roles and acted themselves into much larger roles while Robert Beltran was supposed to be a lead and acted himself into a bit role.

 

[Lance]

There are some who say Beltran had chemistry with the balsa wood that the sets were made out of. But others say they couldn't even see that.

But all kidding aside, 'chemistry' really is a subjective thing. Sure there are people who say "I know it when I see it!", but in my experience people see what they see and don't what they don't. It isn't necessarily something that can be bottled up and sold like so much cheap colonge.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I see the chemistry, currently rewatching and sure it is there. But that's the writing, the deliberate conversations and KM playing Janeway as one who woos her crew. Every single one of them. None of it is, IMO, Beltran. He managed not to fuck it up in the early seasons and that's about all I can say about his chemistry with Janeway. He uttered his lines.

 

[stardream]

Sorry to say that I saw no chemistry between Beltran and anyone. For all his complaints about the writing on the show, his delivery of dialogue was always incredibly dull. There is a reason why Dwight Schultz and Colm Meaney were intended for bit roles and acted themselves into much larger roles while Robert Beltran was supposed to be a lead and acted himself into a bit role.

I often refer to Season 2 as the 'Chakotay season' because that was the year he was given the most to do. New show runners and producers showed up at the beginning of Season 3 and the focus of the show shifted. It was almost as if they threw out everything that had gone before (with the exception of the premise. The ship was still lost) and started over. It was at that point Chakotay was given less to do and other characters were given more prominence.

To be absolutely honest while the show was airing I didn't keep track of such things. I never even noticed that Tom never told B'Elanna he loved her onscreen until years later when I was reading old reviews. I didn't notice Beltran's diminish role either. I just watched the show and accepted whatever they produced. Part of me wishes I had never started into theses discussions and I could re-watch without all those 'things' in my head.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Part of me wishes I had never started into theses discussions and I could re-watch without all those 'things' in my head.

Welcome to fandom.

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

She teared up when she was saying goodbye to Kes.

I remember to have read somewhere that this scene between Mulgrew and Lien was their very last one together and because, Mulgrew, (as the eldest of the team), was very protective of the initial cast, in particular Lien (who was the yougest and that she liked very much), she took very badly this forced departure.
This scene was very emotional for both actresses and they were incapable to hold their tears.

It's good to know that sometimes, the emotion is such deep that even professional actresses have difficulty in not crying.

 

[Griffeytrek]

Sorry to say that I saw no chemistry between Beltran and anyone. For all his complaints about the writing on the show, his delivery of dialogue was always incredibly dull. There is a reason why Dwight Schultz and Colm Meaney were intended for bit roles and acted themselves into much larger roles while Robert Beltran was supposed to be a lead and acted himself into a bit role.

That was kind of my take. I always found Beltran to be very wooden. There were a few actors on the show that not only performed well themselves, but instilled great chemistry with pretty much anyone they played against, elevating their colleagues performance. Picardo, McNiel and Russ stand out in this way. Heck even Neelix became tolerable when elevated by and against Tim Russ's Tuvok. (You could just feel the pain and annoyance radiating from the stoic emotionless Vulcan. Granted to be fair Ethan Phillips is a good actor doing a good job playing an incredibly annoying character.) But Beltran just seemed a black hole. It didn't matter who you bounced him against, it was just solid wood.

I've always rather wondered how or why they went with Chakotay as a character and Beltran to play him? I mean traditionally in Trek, you could follow the logic path to the poorer performances by playing the classic Hollywood game of "who are the related to? Who are they sleeping with?" And it mostly holds up (excepting one horrible instance of "who's high powered lawyer is this?" And Wesley Crusher. Which is a Rabit hole I don't think anybody wants to go down.) but Beltran kind of befuddles me. I mean what did that character pitch meeting look like?;

"What this show really needs is an Indian! Anybody know one?"
"Hey that Dev Patel dude would be great!"
"No no! I said we need an Indian! Not another bloody foreigner! C'mon surely somebody knows someone?"
"I know a dude that's a Mexican?"
"Close enough! Hire him! Just make sure he's tall, cheap, and looks good standing in a corner!"

 

[stardream]

That's an interesting question. I'd like to see his audition tape just out of curiosity.

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

About Janeway/Chakotay, we know that one the worst ideas of producers/writers was to show Chakotay becoming Janeway's 1st officer. Again, how a guy who is supposed to be a badass and experienced former Starfleet officer who joined the Maquis - by taking the lead of the rebellion, further to deep disagreements with Starfleet and the Federation -, can forget all that he believes in to join and serves a captain, who represents all that he loathes, without jibbing more than that. It doesn't make sense! Furthermore, )

(for me, the character of Chacotay lost very early his credibility, what was very harmful for the continuation of the journey and the relationships between him and Janeway, as seeing as he was accused to be her pet for most of the time).

In fact, while Janeway proposed him the deal, he should have refused it while suggesting to temporarily (or not) associate strengths and human resources of the Maquis to Starfleet (as 2 very different entities), at least the time of bringing Voyager out of Delta Quadrant. Like this, Chakotay and his crew would have preserved their independence (through their their rebels "outfits" w/ Maquis insigna, for example), what would have naturally provoked deep tensions afterward with regard to certain Janeway's decisions and why not a mutiny, which would naturally have failed because of the inferiority in number of rebels, but well, the viewers would have seen/felt that the tension could burst at any time.
(the romance between Paris and Torres would have remained unchanged, naturally! )

As for Janeway and Chakotay, they would have been able to live a romance, even temporary, because1) the problem of non-fraternization policy between a capitain and an officer wouldn't have been on the agenda anymore 2) because opposite attract!
It would have been clear that diplomacy mixed to a firm leadership - according to Starfleet principles,naturally! - would allow to Janeway to hold Voyager as well as she could, in particular because of Implacable points of view/varied misunderstandings and of course, the hostility between Chacotay and Voyager's 1st Officer, Tuvok, which would have been more lively and long.

Oh and of course, we take another actor* for the role of Chakotay, whose the performance in feelings would be more nuanced. (Beltran wasn't right for this role because let's be honest, compared to Mulgrew's performance, which offered a pallet of feelings throughout the seasons - just like Picardo and Ryan, besides - has never made the weight and it's maybe one of reasons why producers chose to demote his characte in the background, while at the same time, Picardo's character took some development quite quickly right after S1. Mulgrew/Picardo/Ryan** had an undeniable talent to make the difference - which wasn't the case of Robert Beltran -, ...with, sometimes, the risk of brink of overdose -> from the 5th season, I didn't bear to see The Doctor and I admit to have systematically zapped The Doctor's episodes and they were many! .

* It would be the indispensable condition to make me accept a romance between Janeway and Chakotay, The current association (Janeway/Mugrew - Chakotay/Beltran) for a potential romance doesn't work for me because it isn't as fusional as are Mulder/Scully, Holmes/Dr Joan Watson, etc...
-> the new Chakotayhe would be a short temper rebel whose personality is also strong as the Capitain (but who also hides a great sensibility too).

**Jeri Ryan, who was more talented than producers planned and who was able to make a positive impact (and not only for her catsuit! -> I found her ridiculous inside, preferring Starfleet uniform! ) on the audience at an early stage.

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

Sorry, I forgot McNeil, & Russ and Philipps in the list of great actors.

 

[Ghel]

I always wondered what the role of Chakotay would have been like if the actor playing the character had played him with more edge. Even with the same lines early on, give me the sense that, "yeah, I'll be your first officer for the sake of my crew's survival, but I still resent it." I have little doubt that had Beltran given the writers even the slightest glimmer of edge, they could have taken it and run with it. A captain and first officer at practical and philosophical odds could have been very interesting. Of course, he could have also shown some anger or resentment in learning that Tuvok was a spy as well. Nuthin!

 

[borgboy]

J'Rulz said it best. I am a shipper. I believe.

Toward the end I was ok with Janeway just getting nookie. Only because I gave up hope. I found out through Fanfic that C/7 happens and I was so dissapointed I couldn't finish the series. Then I rewatched it YEARS later Years ago and finished it.

Janeway and Chakotay had great chemistry. I felt that the openings were all over the place and the one thing I could shake Goddess Mulgrew for is for interfering with that. Then they get together in the books and they kill her off.

THANK THE HEAVENS FOR FANFIC AND IT'S WRITTERS.

I don't want to spoil anything for you in the Voyager relaunch books, but keep reading.
Keep in mind Janeway was with Q after her "death".

As for Janeway and Chakotay, I do like them as a couple. I despise Seven and Chakotay as a couple, they were painful to watch together. I wish the writers had instead worked towards a Janeway/Chakotay pairing at the end. Let me have tried to express his feelings, have her show her feelings without saying the words but express they can't be together unless they get home. Then refer back to that with subtle glances between them. Let her take his hand when they see Earth. Do it classy, less is more.
I'm gay. I ship other female couples, big fan of Xena and Gabrielle. I can't see Janeway and Seven as a romantic couple. I see Janeway as being far more maternal with Seven than romance. But I'm not hating on anyone who has a different interpretation. Subtext is subjective.