Crusade Question

[Candlelight]

Dureena becomes a Technomage under Galen's guidance. Since the novels show that the Mages can't make more Mages without the Shadows, the Mages must learn this ability over the course of the series.

I though Gideon was supposed to, and that was part of how Galen resurrects him.

 

[Jan]

Jan, perhaps the keeper was not controlling Londo when he gave that speech (about the humans) simply because it had no reason to? Londo was speaking about the past. There would be no reason for the Drakh to care about such things, so the keeper went ahead and let Londo tell the truth about it.

Exactly my point. I posted that in response to this bit from Kirk:

Maybe the keeper is making Londo tell this false story, so the whole events of the movie are invalid and didn't happen, or happened differently. Puppet Londo just raises a lot of questions about wether or not In The Beginning is actually talking about canon events or a warped version given my a puppet Londo.

Jan

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

It seems that there must be such a thing as a fear of depictions of mind control -- possibly similar to automatonophobia or pupaphobia perhaps.

 

[Mr Light]

<<I though Gideon was supposed to, and that was part of how Galen resurrects him. >>

The Apocalypse Box is what resurrects him, apparently. It wasn't done with him yet.

 

[Lindley]

^ I thought that part was from "War Without End" when old Londo was talking to Sheridan and Delenn. I mean, Londo wouldn't tell two KIDS that he was drunk, would he?

The only reference to alcohol in ITB is at the very end, after the kids have left:

Spoiler: line

"I will need another bottle...I will need several more bottles. Then wait one hour, and bring the prisoners here.........to the future, my old friends...."

 

[Sindatur]

^ I thought that part was from "War Without End" when old Londo was talking to Sheridan and Delenn. I mean, Londo wouldn't tell two KIDS that he was drunk, would he?

The only reference to alcohol in ITB is at the very end, after the kids have left:

Spoiler: line

"I will need another bottle...I will need several more bottles. Then wait one hour, and bring the prisoners here.........to the future, my old friends...."

Ah, OK,

Spoiler: In The Beginning

then a direct reference to the fact he wasn't drunk enough to put it to sleep

 

[Reverend]

Again, the keepers aren't that smart. They're a choke chain meant to correct wrong behaviour. They *cannot* take total control of a person's mind, nor dictate their every word and they're only as cunning or attentive as the Drakh at the other end of the link.

The Drakh don't care one whit if Londo tells a story about the Minbari War to a pair of children. Just like they don't care if he scratches his arse or exiles his wife (long story.) If it doesn't directly effect their agenda, then it's not relevant.

As for why the Drakh don't put keepers on Vir, Delenn, Sheridan etc: The Drakh are not omnipresent. Hell, I don't think they're even that numerous. They can't just stroll into Tuzanor without the Minbari A) noticing and B) killing them. As for Vir...you'll have to read the books. Deal with it!

So, Kirk...does *this* sound like a puppet? (Potential spoilers of a movie you're determined not to see because of your own overthinking)

"The Humans I think knew they were doomed, but where another race would surrender to despair, the Humans fought back with even greater strength. They made the Minbari fight for every inch of space. They would weep, they would pray, they would say goodbye to their loved ones, and then throw themselves without fear or hesitation at the very face of death itself, never surrendering. No one who saw them fighting against the inevitable could help but be moved to tears by their courage, their stubborn nobility. When they ran out ships, they used guns. When they ran out of guns they used knives, and sticks, and bare hands....They were.........magnificent. I only hope that when it is my time, I may die with half as much dignity as I saw in their eyes in the end. They did this for two years. They never ran out of courage, but in the end, they ran out of time."

Emperor Londo Mollari. "In the Beginning"

As for your question about Vir and keepers/Drakh...read the books. Don't expect us to tell you so that you can come up with some other uninformed opinion.

Jan

Let's see if he can be arsed to watch a 3 minute clip.

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeNBJ5o-b7s[/yt]

It's worth keeping in mind that these are the words of a man who knows full well that he *will* die within the next few hours, with his best friend's hands around his throat.

I'm actually a little temped to quote something else Londo says to a certain human General in this film about "efficiency"...but maybe that'd be pushing things just a little too far.

 

[Lindley]

Another reason not to put keepers on everyone: They become useless as soon as they are widely known. Their greatest strength is their secrecy. The more high-profile people who are kept, the more likely they will be discovered.

 

[Triple-F]

Again, the keepers aren't that smart. They're a choke chain meant to correct wrong behaviour. They *cannot* take total control of a person's mind, nor dictate their every word and they're only as cunning or attentive as the Drakh at the other end of the link.

Is that speculation on your part (in which case it’s no more valid or invalid than what Kirk55555 suggested) or something which is mentioned in the books.

Either way though, sticking with what is seen and said on screen. Captain Jack (Racing Mars) had a keeper, and while he could drop some subtle hints that no one picked up on at the time, it was essentially controlling what he said and did. Swapping ident cards, lying, trying to shoot the leader of the Mars resistance. Dialog from that episode also points out the level of control they have - and it goes a bit beyond just correcting wrong behaviour.

Captain Jack (after it was partially removed) - “I wanted to warn you, but I couldn’t say anything. It wouldn’t let me”

Dr Franklin - “This entity can cut into the neuro pathways and override them. Some of the micro fibres are fresh, so my guess is it’s control over a given host grows as it does.”

Londo would have had one on him for a couple of decades, or there abouts.

 

[kirk55555]

Again, the keepers aren't that smart. They're a choke chain meant to correct wrong behaviour. They *cannot* take total control of a person's mind, nor dictate their every word and they're only as cunning or attentive as the Drakh at the other end of the link.

The Drakh don't care one whit if Londo tells a story about the Minbari War to a pair of children. Just like they don't care if he scratches his arse or exiles his wife (long story.) If it doesn't directly effect their agenda, then it's not relevant.

As for why the Drakh don't put keepers on Vir, Delenn, Sheridan etc: The Drakh are not omnipresent. Hell, I don't think they're even that numerous. They can't just stroll into Tuzanor without the Minbari A) noticing and B) killing them. As for Vir...you'll have to read the books. Deal with it!

So, Kirk...does *this* sound like a puppet? (Potential spoilers of a movie you're determined not to see because of your own overthinking)

"The Humans I think knew they were doomed, but where another race would surrender to despair, the Humans fought back with even greater strength. They made the Minbari fight for every inch of space. They would weep, they would pray, they would say goodbye to their loved ones, and then throw themselves without fear or hesitation at the very face of death itself, never surrendering. No one who saw them fighting against the inevitable could help but be moved to tears by their courage, their stubborn nobility. When they ran out ships, they used guns. When they ran out of guns they used knives, and sticks, and bare hands....They were.........magnificent. I only hope that when it is my time, I may die with half as much dignity as I saw in their eyes in the end. They did this for two years. They never ran out of courage, but in the end, they ran out of time."

Emperor Londo Mollari. "In the Beginning"

As for your question about Vir and keepers/Drakh...read the books. Don't expect us to tell you so that you can come up with some other uninformed opinion.

Jan

It's worth keeping in mind that these are the words of a man who knows full well that he *will* die within the next few hours, with his best friend's hands around his throat.

I'm actually a little temped to quote something else Londo says to a certain human General in this film about "efficiency"...but maybe that'd be pushing things just a little too far.

I'm at the library and don’t have headphones, so I can’t watch the clip. Either way, all he did was complement humans. I know the keeper wasn’t constantly going, just whenever it mattered, so even sober I doubt it would care about him complimenting humans to only a few people in private. Now, it probably wouldn’t let him say good things in public, but one sppech to a few people probably wouldn’t matter. I still think it controls more than just some leash, but it obviously wasn’t 100% 24/7, or he’d never be able to drink to put it to sleep. It was probably more like 95% in control when he was in public, 100% when it needed to, and only in control in private when it needed to. That still makes him a puppet, just one that could occasionally do minor things of its own free will.
[FONT=Calibri] [/FONT]

 

[Reverend]

Again, the keepers aren't that smart. They're a choke chain meant to correct wrong behaviour. They *cannot* take total control of a person's mind, nor dictate their every word and they're only as cunning or attentive as the Drakh at the other end of the link.

Is that speculation on your part (in which case it’s no more valid or invalid than what Kirk55555 suggested) or something which is mentioned in the books.

Either way though, sticking with what is seen and said on screen. Captain Jack (Racing Mars) had a keeper, and while he could drop some subtle hints that no one picked up on at the time, it was essentially controlling what he said and did. Swapping ident cards, lying, trying to shoot the leader of the Mars resistance. Dialog from that episode also points out the level of control they have - and it goes a bit beyond just correcting wrong behaviour.

Captain Jack (after it was partially removed) - “I wanted to warn you, but I couldn’t say anything. It wouldn’t let me”

Dr Franklin - “This entity can cut into the neuro pathways and override them. Some of the micro fibres are fresh, so my guess is it’s control over a given host grows as it does.”

Londo would have had one on him for a couple of decades, or there abouts.

Short answer: it's in the books.

Admittedly it's been some years since I've read them so some details may have escaped me. As I said previously though, they do have some direct muscle control, but it's limited. IIRC they can block action through paralysis (partial and total) but they can't *make* a person carry on a whole conversation, controlling their every move for extended periods and the like just isn't their purpose. That's what mindwipes and construct personalities are for.

This is clearly supported in what Londo says in 'War Without End': -

"I gave a very good performance. Yes. It was satisfied. Doesn't care why I do what I do...as long as I do it. As long as you are dead."

It wasn't the keeper talking when he was ranting on at Sheridan & Delenn, it was Londo acting under orders. Just as he did in 'The Fall of Centauri Prime' and again in 'Objects at Rest'. Though in the latter case he tried and failed to get a drink so he could warn them somehow.

Further more, if it had *total* control then it wouldn't be at all possible for either Londo or Jack to even try to get around the thing.

In the novel we see that shortly after his coronation, Londo underwent periods of torture and conditioning. He still had his own mind and thoughts, but he learns the hard way that open rebellion is futile. I imagine Jack and the Regent had a similar experience, though the Regent for his part was clearly broken by it.

Indeed we saw both Londo and Captain Jack outsmart the thing by indirectly subverting it's will. We even saw Jack able to fight it's muscle control as he was clearly struggling to hold that PPG steady.

As you say though, that keeper was relatively new so it's control wouldn't be as pervasive.

I'm at the library and don’t have headphones, so I can’t watch the clip. Either way, all he did was complement humans. I know the keeper wasn’t constantly going, just whenever it mattered, so even sober I doubt it would care about him complimenting humans to only a few people in private. Now, it probably wouldn’t let him say good things in public, but one sppech to a few people probably wouldn’t matter. I still think it controls more than just some leash, but it obviously wasn’t 100% 24/7, or he’d never be able to drink to put it to sleep. It was probably more like 95% in control when he was in public, 100% when it needed to, and only in control in private when it needed to. That still makes him a puppet, just one that could occasionally do minor things of its own free will.
[FONT=Calibri] [/FONT]

Since you're at the library, do us both a favour and go find a dictionary and look up the word "subtext". There's a good chap!

 

[kirk55555]

I'm not sure what subtext had to do with anything.

We're not going to agree on this. I think Puppet Londo is the worst thing in babylon 5. Its a bad idea that was done as well as it could be but that didn't save it. Its B5's biggest mistake from a character perspective in my opinion. We might as well leave it at that.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

I think the keeper is more sheepdog than Hypnotoad. A strong-willed sheep might sometimes be able to outwit the sheepdog, but no-one can resist Hypnotoad.

 

[Reverend]

I'm not sure what subtext had to do with anything.

Alas, this is often the problem I feel.

I think the keeper is more sheepdog than Hypnotoad. A strong-willed sheep might sometimes be able to outwit the sheepdog, but no-one can resist Hypnotoad.

Why would anyone want to resist the Hypnotoad? The Hypnotoad is our friend. All glory to the Hypnotoad!

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Indeed.
[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGbMG8ZGJC8[/yt]

 

[chrisspringob]

A couple of points on the planned future storylines for Crusade:

-Yes, Gideon gets shot at the end of "End of the Line" (the season finale of Season 1). JMS claimed that the plan was for him to return in Season 2. However, in one of the script books, there's an interview with Janet Greek in which she talks about how Gary Cole didn't really fit in with the culture of B5/Crusade, and that he wasn't a "team player" in the way that, say, Bruce Boxleitner was on B5, and treated it like just another job. She was convinced that he wasn't going to come back for Season 2. (But this is just one person's opinion, so take it with the requisite grain of salt.)

-The Technomage books are indeed quite good. *However*, I think one can go too far in using it to infer clues about the storyline of Crusade. I don't remember all the details anymore, but when the books came out, there was some debate about them on Usenet, in which people were pointing out some inconsistencies between the books and the portrayal of the Technomages on B5 and Crusade. Most specifically, inconsistencies between the books and the unproduced script for "End of the Line" (which was actually written by JMS, so likely closer to what he intended).

Again, I forget most of the details, but I think one of the big things was that in the books, the Technomages aren't really scientists. They don't really understand the technology that they're using, and literally treat it as sorcery, but this is at odds with how they're presented in the show. Also some discrepancies regarding their precise motives for fleeing the known space during the Shadow War, but I don't want to get too heavily into spoiler territory, because if you haven't read them, you should read the unproduced Crusade scripts, and/or the Technomage books.

 

[Mr Light]

In the novels, some of them of scientists, some are not. But at the end of the novel, with all the characters stuck in the Hiding Place, they will clearly re-position themselves to learn all they can about the tech in order to replicate it.